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[Retropunch]

I feel that the best thing that could happen with this is someone made a really, really basic, version which was open source and well commented. From that, I'm sure there would be more people willing to actively take up the mantle

What minimal feature set would you want in that version?

For the minimum viable product, I'd say:
 - able to move ships full of marines from planet to planet
 - different planets would be filled with different enemies and battle would commence when a ship attacks it (in a text based log, no need for graphics).
 - enemies would spread to other planets per turn(s).
 - periodic or action based events with some choice (going to planet Balthazar might give you the choice to enter a tomb and potentially get loot, but you might lose soldiers etc.)
 - marines could be equipped with different gear which would affect their stats (this could be pretty broad to start with - the equipment could be set per ship rather than individually for instance).


If you had that, along with the things to go with it (an inventory for each ship would be needed for instance) then it'd be pretty easy for others to build on - events could be created, enemy races could be built, battles could become more nuanced etc.

The key would be to have it super well commented, and with as little spaghetti code as possible. I'd also suggest it be done in a more global language than Gamemaker - python, C# or similar, as gamemaker can be a bit restrictive and isn't really suitable for githubbing etc.

[Cruxador]

I feel that the best thing that could happen with this is someone made a really, really basic, version which was open source and well commented. From that, I'm sure there would be more people willing to actively take up the mantle

What minimal feature set would you want in that version?

The basic things you need are factions, units, sector maps, systems and planets, planetary battles, and ships which can move around and interact with those things. Wargear and particularly significant artifacts would also be good, for the player at least, and some manner of infrastructure and income to build ships and wargear, recruit, organize, and promote units. In terms of interface, King of Dragon Pass was one of the big inspirations for Chapter Master, and having your subordinates as a council or otherwise in the interface is a good way to make immersion work. Then just support for a random event system, and it should be primed to become something huge and amazing.

[Retropunch]

The basic things you need are factions, units, sector maps, systems and planets, planetary battles, and ships which can move around and interact with those things. Wargear and particularly significant artifacts would also be good, for the player at least, and some manner of infrastructure and income to build ships and wargear, recruit, organize, and promote units. In terms of interface, King of Dragon Pass was one of the big inspirations for Chapter Master, and having your subordinates as a council or otherwise in the interface is a good way to make immersion work. Then just support for a random event system, and it should be primed to become something huge and amazing.

I'd agree, but I'd say most of that is 'step 2' (especially artefacts, promoting and organising, sectors etc.) - it's definitely what makes it chapter master, but it's not needed for a version 0.1.

The thing is, as soon as you get it up to 0.1 level it starts becoming way more attractive to people - the hard work of deciding what language to use, how to do movement and basic graphics, how to do turns etc. is all taken care of and people can get to doing the 'fun stuff' like factions and equipment and stuff.

[Trekkin]

The thing is, as soon as you get it up to 0.1 level it starts becoming way more attractive to people - the hard work of deciding what language to use, how to do movement and basic graphics, how to do turns etc. is all taken care of and people can get to doing the 'fun stuff' like factions and equipment and stuff.

That's why it will never happen, though: if the problem is that the incentives already in place can't support False Emperors doing the 'hard work', a point on which I think we agree, expecting someone to do only the 'hard work' so other people can make use of it is an insuperably tall order, let alone for such a big feature set.

Worse than the work itself is the expectation that sets up: as soon as you call something "well documented", every newbie hears "everything you don't understand is a flaw in my documentation", and you will be hounded endlessly for requests for "clear step by step guides" on how to do literally everything so someone else can stick their name on it.

You're asking someone to write a game in return for having their inbox blown up every time some amateur gets an off-by-one error and maybe looked at your code once so obviously you have to fix it. That's an absolutely vomitous deal.

[EnigmaticHat]

Patreon, patreon is your friend.  That being said there is still risk even if you make CM copyright friendly; remember GW doesn't have to win a lawsuit to disrupt someone's life, they just have to start a lawsuit.

[Trekkin]

Patreon, patreon is your friend.

In the sense that kerosene is a good friend of fire, perhaps.

Entitlement rises faster than funding. Always. To above inbox explosion, add larger explosions of "for $X you should give us everything under the sun before we know we want it" and, of course,  "I spent ten seconds changing a variable (after six weeks learning how) and it works now pay me $X/2 or I'll sue." EDIT: Or, even better, "I wrote code just like this once now pay me absurd amounts of money or I'll sue."

Just as people are convinced, erroneously, that you can do whatever you want without "money changing hands", they will believe with all their heart whatever legal absurdity they need to in order to convince themselves that they deserve some/most/all of whatever contributions you get, and they will never shut up about it, let alone stop dragging your name through the mud for "stealing from them".

[E. Albright]

As far as the simplest way come up with a generic (base-game) structure that's unquestionably public domain, I'd personally probably take the tact of forgetting chapters of marine companies led by captains led by you the chapter master and go with Legions of Legionary Centuries led by Centurions led by you the Legate. Chaplains? Imaginifers, or maybe Censors. Apothecaries? Capsarii. Scouts? Velites. Veterans? Principes. Terminators? Triarii. Inquisitors accompanied by Grey Knights? Nope, Quaestors with their bodyguard of Lictors. Space nuns? Nope, space Vestals. Etc.

[If I had to pick a title for an arbitrary "Roman legions in space simulator that you can mod but is totally meant to be standalone" like that, Celestial Legacy has a nice ring to it.]

[Retropunch]

The thing is, as soon as you get it up to 0.1 level it starts becoming way more attractive to people - the hard work of deciding what language to use, how to do movement and basic graphics, how to do turns etc. is all taken care of and people can get to doing the 'fun stuff' like factions and equipment and stuff.

That's why it will never happen, though: if the problem is that the incentives already in place can't support False Emperors doing the 'hard work', a point on which I think we agree, expecting someone to do only the 'hard work' so other people can make use of it is an insuperably tall order, let alone for such a big feature set.

Worse than the work itself is the expectation that sets up: as soon as you call something "well documented", every newbie hears "everything you don't understand is a flaw in my documentation", and you will be hounded endlessly for requests for "clear step by step guides" on how to do literally everything so someone else can stick their name on it.

You're asking someone to write a game in return for having their inbox blown up every time some amateur gets an off-by-one error and maybe looked at your code once so obviously you have to fix it. That's an absolutely vomitous deal.

I wasn't suggesting that someone should do all the hard work and then abandon it, I was more meaning that once you've gotten to 0.1 someone who is interested in taking on the project will find there's a *lot* more support available. I'd suggest a similar model to CataDDA or Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup - it's open source, but you (or a trusted team) control what gets added through github or similar.

As an example, lets say you set it up to be what I put as the minimum, plus two classes for marines (scout and marine) with different stats and two 'chapters' with some different colours (all in a mod package) - I'm sure you could quickly find someone to fill in (in correct JSON format) all the other chapters, marine types, names and all the rest.

Sure people can fork it and you can end up with a trillion different badly working clones and people feeling entitled about it - these are definitely risks of open source software, but it's easily countered with 'if you don't like it, the code is there so change it yourself'.

[EuchreJack]

As far as the simplest way come up with a generic (base-game) structure that's unquestionably public domain, I'd personally probably take the tact of forgetting chapters of marine companies led by captains led by you the chapter master and go with Legions of Legionary Centuries led by Centurions led by you the Legate. Chaplains? Imaginifers, or maybe Censors. Apothecaries? Capsarii. Scouts? Velites. Veterans? Principes. Terminators? Triarii. Inquisitors accompanied by Grey Knights? Nope, Quaestors with their bodyguard of Lictors. Space nuns? Nope, space Vestals. Etc.

[If I had to pick a title for an arbitrary "Roman legions in space simulator that you can mod but is totally meant to be standalone" like that, Celestial Legacy has a nice ring to it.]

A good idea, since the underlying Roman Centurion structure isn't copyrighted.  It'd even be interesting!  And could even be set in its own universe where you fight the Greek City States (inspired by, but in no way referencing, Chaos), Space Barbarians (ditto Orcs), etc.

[Persus13]

Alternatively Chaos could be one half of the Roman Empire (Western?) and the Imperium be the other.

Now I'm trying to figure out what Space Egypt and Persia would be.

[EuchreJack]

Alternatively Chaos could be one half of the Roman Empire (Western?) and the Imperium be the other.

Now I'm trying to figure out what Space Egypt and Persia would be.

Necrons and Tau?

[EnigmaticHat]

Nah Persia is the Eldar.  Once proud empire brought low by a sudden disaster, now a shadow of their former selves.

Although that's after the fall of the West Roman Empire.

[ChairmanPoo]

you dont need literal copies of every single warhammer race. You can mix and match

[Trekkin]

-snip-

I wasn't suggesting that someone should do all the hard work and then abandon it, I was more meaning that once you've gotten to 0.1 someone who is interested in taking on the project will find there's a *lot* more support available. I'd suggest a similar model to CataDDA or Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup - it's open source, but you (or a trusted team) control what gets added through github or similar.

As an example, lets say you set it up to be what I put as the minimum, plus two classes for marines (scout and marine) with different stats and two 'chapters' with some different colours (all in a mod package) - I'm sure you could quickly find someone to fill in (in correct JSON format) all the other chapters, marine types, names and all the rest.

Sure people can fork it and you can end up with a trillion different badly working clones and people feeling entitled about it - these are definitely risks of open source software, but it's easily countered with 'if you don't like it, the code is there so change it yourself'.

I agree that a 0.1 version would be a much more robust starting point than our present graveyard of map demos, but my point was that a 0.1 version is itself too much to ask for one person or even one team to code for free in obscurity. Your list is not trivial. Nor would the support you suggest would be available be particularly helpful. I absolutely accept that the existence of a 0.1 not-Chapter-Master-wink-wink would set off a firestorm of bikeshedding about how best to represent every unit and piece of wargear in 40k, but that's all you get; leaving aside how none of that can be ported back into your code, none of that is actual code development. It doesn't get you from 0.1 to 0.2 any more than tilesets help develop DF: at best, you can claim that they help provide feature requests, but every software development project has more of those than they'll ever need.

See, Chapter Master has two fatal problems that have nothing to do with copyright or money. First, all the blue-sky design work has already been done to death, so it's really hard to sell as a passion project because you're already working with someone else's ideas. If I had the time to write games, there are absolutely games I'd be more psyched to write, and that's true of everyone. Chapter Master is an idea in a field where ideas are ten-a-penny, and it comes with exceptional baggage, which leads us to the second problem: the 40k fandom is huge, and any credible attempt at a 0.1 version would be swamped by tons of people. As with any group of fans, most of them are not going to be helpful but all of them will be extremely opinionated, and the resultant bickering gets exponentially louder as the group gets bigger. That drives useful people away just because it's such an unpleasant environment to work in, and it also inhibits the few things amateurs are actually good for.

Not-CM 0.1 is a big project, but unlike other games of comparable size, all the most fun parts are already done and thousands upon thousands of perennially angry people stand ready to suck the fun out of the rest one flame war at a time.

[Egan_BW]

...I'll just point out that Orcs with a C aren't copyright. Space Orcs with lotsa guns who like to fight can be pretty much directly translated with a single letter changed.