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[nenjin]

I think it's just their map making ability and game design ideas exceeded their AI programmer's abilities.

And to be fair, really think about how much goes into what the AI has to think about. All the facets of a player fighter come into play as it makes both build and in-game decisions. Tons of factors to juggle. I don't blame whoever has worked on the AI for the state its in. It's a tall fucking order. I'm not sure I've played a TBS game with this much 3d fidelity that was this complex. I honestly think what Mordheim asks of its AI makes what XCOM:EU asked of its look like peanuts.

But I'm not satisfied with where it is. There is so much buggy shit going on with it, it still feels like an EA game because of it. I really hope crushing bugs solves a lot of these problems, but honestly I think it needs more work than that. I can't shake the feeling the AI was somehow of a different stripe in early EA. Incomplete sure but it feels like it acted according to different rules like LOS vs. GODLIKE OMNISCIENCE. The shift toward buffed, cheaty AI had to happen and I suspect it was a triage effort because the AI they were going for wasn't working out or would take way too long to get right.

All that said.....the prospect of a fully functioning AI that plays according to the rules it currently does now is terrifying. Turn 3 Team battles, even on the traditionally bigger maps and deployments. All other deployments because massive turn 1 cluster fucks because all their units are on point. All their guys, buffed above yours. (Next patch is going to buff both brutal and deadly HP and damage another 5%. :X)

[Majestic7]

I just think it is sad how their inability to make a challenging AI and their fetish for MP/hardcore play makes them invent more and more crutches for the AI while kneecapping the players in comparison. The game had great potential but I've given up on it. I think I'll return to see what it is like in a few months; I doubt the devs are very mod-friendly either, otherwise some enterprising fans might be able to fix certain design failures themselves.

In a way, I think the AI design reflects the dev attitude in general. Major issues are ignored, small issues are attacked fiercely and problems are handled by adding crutches.

[Stuebi]

I've put down my Review a couple days ago, and it's negative. Because I felt like Nenjin is right. There's just too much stupid stuff in it to outright recommend it, no matter how long I played. If I didnt completely see it wrong, it's currently the first Review on the Helpful list (Might just be because it show me my own Reviews first, tough. So take this with a grain of salt). I'm not confident that it's gonna change anything, from the moronic mutation mechanics over the AI crutches to the difficulty curve that is all over the place. But at least, we can hope.

[Majestic7]

Found it, I think your assessment is something I can agree with almost completely. Thanks for writing it so I didn't need to make one.

[nenjin]

Still haven't written my Steam review. Been too busy playing.

Being able to save scum has removed my complaints about difficulty. I even beat the Library Story Mission on my first try. (Although totally overleveled for it.)

I'm going to hold off and let a couple post release patches come through. By the time I write a review it will be lost in all the noise but...I want to keep hoping this game improves.

Right now my only complaint I have no tolerance for or good answer to is the AI bugging out and making me wait. I could deal with the RNG, the punishment I will just save scum away, the lack of true difficulty and the presence of bandaid difficulty, much as they suck.

But having games go 18 freaking turns to finish, where I'm standing around doing nothing, is absurd. You either rush out there to play the normal game and get RNG'd, or you hole up in a safe defensive structure and matches take more than an hour to play.

It's a shame because when the game works, it works. I played the Skaven Library Story mission yesterday (Reading Frenzy.) LOVED IT. The insane library visuals, chaos literally boiling up from the floors. The fact you're fighting 6 daemons that are powerful as shit instead of a 20+ normal enemies. The different areas of the library with their different debuffs. The teleporter color puzzle that links the whole thing together. Easily the coolest story mission I've yet done.

[Majestic7]

Isn't it a pretty bad sign that to enjoy the game you must cheat, though? Yeah, I don't consider reloading much cheating in a single-player, but the devs do and I guess that is what defines it.

[nenjin]

You don't HAVE to cheat.

It just got me to the point where I can actually bear failure now. Knowing I can savescum away some true bullshit makes the average BS seem less damning.

TBH, the only rerolls I've been doing are basically ambushes by Skaven. I can even win ambushes without casualties. I used to restart when I'd get a crit or two right at the start of the match. Now, I've learned to roll with the punches. Use Poultices. Make it work. 99% of the time it's just a Light Wound as a result.

Like a lot of "hardcore" games, Mordheim doesn't really give you any chance to get familiar with basics of survival. The tutorial gets you ready to functionally play the game, but it doesn't explain, like, how aggressively the AI is going to after you. How it prioritizes whose ass to kick. How you balance collecting vs. surviving. Stuff like that.

I think there's a new breed of games like these that start out saying "we're going to be a hardcore game." I feel like people's reaction to Mordheim's difficulty is sort of the same as Darkest Dungeon, which also puts that "hardcore" label right on the screen as you start. It has the same habits of doing punishing things to the player because it likes to pile on the pain. Knowledge and repeated exposure to systems (like me learning what the actual injury rates Open Wounds are in Mordheim, or what Curios are just stupid to investigate in DD) gets you through the game because it's all about making informed decisions. That's the learning curve. Unlike DD Mordheim is pretty unfair on a couple levels though, and unlike DD, it takes a lot more work to keep your guys alive and leveling, I think. Both start punching you in the face from the very first mission.

I mean, point in fact, it's taken me....about 40 hours to get comfortable with Mordheim's full release SP. And that was playing a ton of EA Mordheim so I was already familiar with building guys, common mistakes and so forth. That's a pretty tall order for any random gamer buying it.

Anyways, devs on the forum are reading the AI threads people are making and they're reworking the RNG to be less streaky. So the game may improve yet.

[Stuebi]

I just wont be happy until they change those godawful mutation mechanics.

I don particularly care for sisters and Mercs, because I find playing humies boring in Warhammer. And only Skaven get's boring after a while. There's also the fact that I think the Spawn and Possessed are just really cool unit with lots of potential.

To be honest, I might actually cheese it by just savescumming bevore Level up, until I get a decent mutation that doesnt screw my current build.

[nenjin]

New patch.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hello Everyone,

Since the full release of Mordheim: City of the Damned, we continue monitoring the forums and your feedback, to provide you support and fix major issues that could alter your experience in the game.

Today, we present you our first patch (1.0.4.9) since the release, providing the following fixes and improvements:

General Fixes
New RNG system (yes, this is not a joke) that should reflects better the odds of performing actions
Born Leader now retains the proper attribute bonuses when mastered
Fixed the text for Dual Wield debuff that was still displaying 30% instead of 25%
Added a collision on all Jail wagon’s ramp to help AI navigate
Fixed an issue where the Sister Superior were only given 2 Skill Points at Rank 8 while she was supposed to have 4.
The Speed of the Possessed warrior has been increased to Fast instead of being Slow
Treasury will now be updated correctly after receiving mission reward
Monster and Dramatis names are now properly localized to other languages
The “Available units” section is now scrollable using joystick (right stick)
The “New arrivals items list” is now scrollable using joystick (right stick)
Warriors won't "rubber-band" anymore when moving after they performed an action
The Mission Rewards percentage automatically gathered after battle will now be based on your Warriors that are not Out of Action at the end of the fight. The changes will go as follow:
Normal: 4% per warrior alive
Hard: 5% per warrior alive
Brutal: 6% per warrior alive
Deadly: 7% per warrior alive
Damage dealt by AI units has been increased based on mission difficulties as follow:
Normal: Remains as +5% damage
Hard: Remains as +15% damage
Brutal: Increases to +30% (from 25%)
Deadly: Increases to +45% (from 35%)
Reduced the request of the first Wyrdstone Shipment from 100 to 75
Slightly reduced the Wyrdstone requests for Warband rank 0, 1 and 2
Increased the Starting Gold for new Warband from 200 to 250 gold (this is the base value before any Veteran bonus are added)
Made sure the proper animation triggers when a buff is received from Wyrdstone effects, Traps and Idols
Added the amount of current players playing the game in the Skirmish List
Fixed the default selected item in the Hideout menu to prevent misclicks which sometimes lead for Players to enter the wrong menu
Improved the highlighting system in the game menus
Wounds of the Pink Horror have been increased to be on par with other Daemons
It is now impossible to get an Ambush in two scenarios in a row
We added a Kick option in the multiplayer lobby
"Ready" is now selected by default when entering a lobby, while using a gamepad
The curse dealing fatal damage has been changed from 6666 to 9999 (since 9 is the sacred number of Tzeentch)
Added command line "-lowSettings" to force game to start using low graphics settings (need to delete option.sg file first)
Added command line "-fullLog" to force fully detailed logs (Check the thread "Issues launching or loading the game. Read this first!" for more details)
Display ambush range when selecting ambush stance

Unique Story Missions Fixes
We removed reinforcements during the Unique Story Missions that takes place in the Library and in the Ballroom
Fixed the position of an Objective Marker for the Story Mission 8 of the Skaven
Merga will be more passive and focus on her ritual in the missions:
Sisters 2-4
Mercenary 2-2
Added collision on the broken stagecoach-wagon in Act 2-3 of Mercenaries Campaign.
Slightly increased Gold Rewards for Act 2 Story missions (sadly this is not retroactive)
We made modifications to the Library missions AI behaviour in hope it will prevent the blocking of teleports for more than 1 Turn. Make sure to report if this keeps happening

Runes & Marks
Rune of Dismay has been modified as follow:
The effect is now Stackable
The debuff effect of the 1 Hand enchant has been reduced from -5% to -3% for the normal version and from -10% to -6% for the Mastery version
The debuff effect of the 2 Hand/Range enchant has been reduced from -10% to -6% for the normal version and from -20% to -12% for the Mastery version

Multiplayer Fixes
Added fail safe to avoid connection lost
Improved network stability while loading
Added a Fix to prevent players from being locked in "Wait for opponent" if opponent disconnect during its turn

Navigation and Terrain fixes
Fixed several pathfinding issues involving building doorways.
Fixed an issue in the Raven Barracks Map that would cause, on a rare occasion, units to teleport outside of the gameplay area.
Fixed an issue in Noble's Quarter Map 1 that would cause procedural props to imprison units inside a building.
Fixed various issues with procedural buildings inter-connection over all Merchant and Noble Quarters Maps.
Fixed numerous visual bugs with certain buildings.
Fixed camera behaviour over several locations in the Great Library and Raven Barracks Maps.
Fixed several collision issues in the Raven Barracks Map.
Fixed Level of Detail aggressiveness on certain procedural props and terrain elements for all Merchant Quarters Maps.
Fixed neutral monsters that would spawn occasionally in the air in Count Steinhardt's Palace Map.
Fixed visual issues on a building in Quayside Map
Fixed a rare occurrence where the indoor Warband Chest was unreachable.
Fixed an issue where you could charge/ambush into the filthy waters of Quayside.
Fixed floating Wyrdstones that could appear in Merchant Quarter's Map 4 on rare occasions.
Fixed an issue with units that could spawn outside the navmesh in Quayside Skirmishes.
Fixed an instance of Nobles Quarter Map 2 that would spawn unreachable Wyrdstones.

Key note points are:

-Possessed now has "Fast" unit movement rate.
-New RNG system (early early reports still claim its streaky.)
-Loot earned from maps is now based on the # of surviving warriors on your side. I like this change, for a couple reasons. One, it's truer to the table top system and its hero loot rolls. For two, a lot of players were running minimum size warbands because it was easier (or at least quicker) to play games that way.
-Slight tweaks to money and wyrdstone requests to make the early game a little more forgiving.
-Impossible to roll two ambush missions in a row now.
-Lots of navigation and terrain fixes.

[ZebioLizard2]

-Loot earned from maps is now based on the # of surviving warriors on your side. I like this change, for a couple reasons. One, it's truer to the table top system and its hero loot rolls. For two, a lot of players were running minimum size warbands because it was easier (or at least quicker) to play games that way.

From what I've seen, adding more units just added more units that you had to deal with, which tends to increase the chances of failure with more actions needed to task and more enemies ganging up on you with higher based stats.

[Stuebi]

Eh, I'm not entirely sure. Wether more guys is harder or easier depends heavily on the map, the secondary objective and especially, Deployment.
I'm running with 4 people at most, the one exception being story missions. It's faster, less painful in deployment, cuts down on the RNG b*llsh*t, makes you less dependent on the shop etc. etc.
With the changes I will probably try to run with 5 or 6 in the future. But no more than that.


No changes to the Chaos mutations, which means I wont be playing this Update anyway, tough.

[Majestic7]

More enemies meant more loot and exp though. If you won by luring the idiotic AI into a chokepoint and mobbed them with superior numbers / shooters up high, it didn't really matter that much anyway.

[nenjin]

From personal experience, yeah, that's true. But matches can take up to an hour and a half or more to play sometimes when you do that.

[puke]

I got this on the 50% sale a couple weeks back, and I'm really enjoying it.

I see where people will find it frustrating and yes, I do wish there was a non-ironman mode where I could easily savescum in-mission.  But on the other hand, I'd never get this gameplay experience if it wasn't forcing it down my throat.  So, thanks?

I had to hire three leaders for my Skaven in the first week, and it nearly broke the bank -- but they've now got a 15 mission unbroken winning streak so we came through it strong.

My sisters lost a mission early on, and their investment in heavy armor was ripped away, but they're recovering.

You just need to treat all the units as disposeable.  Assume they are going to die eventually, and don't worry about leveling them perfectly.  You can just hire a high-level replacement later.

[Neonivek]

I honestly think what Mordheim asks of its AI makes what XCOM:EU asked of its look like peanuts.

The AI in XCOM:EU isn't even particularly advanced if you understand it.