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[PrimusRibbus]

Yeah, that's one of the problems I find with a lot of miniature gaming. The variance of the results is just so huge. It's true for Blood Bowl, Mordheim, Battletech...

I've definitely had that problem before. And then one of my heroes lost an arm. THANKS GAME. Now I guess I can just call her The Dodge Sister.

I think that's a big reason why miniatures gaming doesn't translate well to the computer. 95% chance to hit on a computer game feels like a guaranteed hit, but when you're physically rolling that D20 you're always fully aware that rolling a 1 is a real possibility. A bunch of people sitting on edge and yelling when that (un)lucky 1 rolls is an experience; a "miss" message that instantly pops up is a frustration.

Same mechanic, same chance to hit, completely different feeling.

[nenjin]

Kinda cuts to what I was saying about how this game was translated to PC. I think they tried to do it directly as possible, but as you said, the mechanics and flow of a table top game are distinctly different than what works for a computer game.

[Anvilfolk]

I think that's a big reason why miniatures gaming doesn't translate well to the computer. 95% chance to hit on a computer game feels like a guaranteed hit, but when you're physically rolling that D20 you're always fully aware that rolling a 1 is a real possibility. A bunch of people sitting on edge and yelling when that (un)lucky 1 rolls is an experience; a "miss" message that instantly pops up is a frustration.

Same mechanic, same chance to hit, completely different feeling.

That's incredibly insightful - I'd never thought of it that way! Thanks for that

[Majestic7]

I think even injuries would be fun if the player had input in them. Say, you get three cards face down and have to pick up as the injury your fallen warrior suffers, then the other two get shown too. So you can get a moment of "Whew, glad I didn't pick that "groin sproing"-card!" or "Dammit, why did I have to pick that one?!" instead of the game just arbitrarily reaming you in the poopchute.

[Hanzoku]

At least for me, there's also sometimes the suspicion that the game is lying extensively about the actual chances. With a die, you know that (unless it's loaded) there is indeed a 1 in 20 chance for each of the numbers to come up. In a computer game, they can tell you whatever they want, but when you miss 6+ times in a row on what should be a '95% chance to hit', I start to wonder if they aren't just lying.

[Majestic7]

I think that, in case of Mordheim, the game fails to deliver the right information. When it tells you there is 95% of hitting the enemy, that is the basic chance based on your dude's own numbers. It doesn't count the enemy chance to block and/or dodge. That is handled separately, when it should show in the initial hitting chance.

I have no idea if it is so, but that is my gut feeling.

[Stuebi]

To those who want to see the actual numbers. Open the Log ingame with L.

It shows the target number vs the number you actually rolled. It also shows enemy dodge attempts, poison and trap resistance tests etc. Addiotionally, CTRL shows modifiers on actions and ALT shows all effects currently on your selected Toon.


Also, one common misconception about hitting and hitchances:

If it says 95% chance to hit, the game isn't lying. It's just that stances like Dodge and Parry are calculated differently. Let's say you engage a Skaven Verminkin who went into a Dodge stance for 50% last turn. When you attack, the game first calculates if you actually got a hit (Which is done by rolling against YOUR hitchance). If you didnt, you get the "miss" message and no damage is dealt. If you do however land a hit, the enemy still got his stance, so he gets to roll on a Dodge attempt. His Agility gives him a 50% chance to succesfully dodge the attack. If he does, the message displayed is actually "Dodged" instead of "missed".
Also keep in mind, that if you miss your first attack on an enemy in a stance, they actually don't use up their Dodge / Parry and may get it on the second or third attacks.

[Anvilfolk]

Yeah, I keep the game-log open as soon as I miss my first 3/4 hit and get angry

Also, it highlights the fact that the interface really, really isn't doing its job. The dodge chance should be available, you should be able to select an enemy unit easily and know what stance its in, its abilities (like whether they have a longer charge or ambush range), etc. All of this is incredibly relevant to playing the game tactically, and yet it simply isn't available.

[nenjin]

I wonder if that's intentional. Again sort of like table top, thinking stuff needs to be obscured like the table top while not realizing PC games have a different standard for information.

[nenjin]

Well, I get what you're saying now Majestic7. At first I thought you were kind of exaggerating but.... the devs, or at least their mouth piece, are incredibly obstinate on this point. I'm more than happy to accept some hardcore play, but these guys don't have the ability to really do it well, and are instead digging in their heels on the shit decisions they've already made.

Now the real question is, what do I say for my Steam review? I still really like this game, but I almost can't in good conscious recommend it to people. I wonder how well XCOM would have done if it essentially only had Iron Man mode....

[Majestic7]

Yeah, I think that despite liking the game I can't recommend it, since I think it is an acquired taste that would not be appreciated by the vast majority of players.

[Anvilfolk]

Out of curiosity, do y'all have a background in playing the Mordheim tabletop? I'm still enjoying it, although definitely as a gem in the rough (that is apparently unlikely to ever be polished). So I guess I'm wondering how much having previous experience with Mordheim, the tabletop, would affect people's expectations of the game.

[ZebioLizard2]

I've played the tabletop but not the game, but it's kinda baffling that they are only coming out with only four factions. No Witch Hunters, no alternate Mercenaries (Reiklanders, Middenheimers, Marinbergers), no Undead?

One of the reasons I was waiting was for extra factions to come in before I'd decide, but they didn't even add all the ones that came in the original book, let alone all the cool extra GW released stuff later.

[Majestic7]

I played the tabletop when it was new, so maybe something like 1999 - 2002? No experience about newer editions, if any came out afterwards.

[puke]

I played Necromunda, so I'm interested in this in principle -- basically a fantasy skin of the same game.

If it looks like they'll support it the same way Talisman is being supported (for example) with a ton of DLC and add-ons, then I'll get into it.  As long as I can get a "season pass" or whatever.  If it looks like they're just pushing it out the door with the current factions and dropping it, then I probably wont.

I imagine the publisher is waiting to see what their sales are like after leaving early access, before they decide how (or if) to support it in the future.