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Author Topic: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Team-based looting and murder simulator.  (Read 60929 times)

nenjin

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #180 on: November 14, 2015, 02:29:04 pm »

I don't believe so. The process of combat feels snappy enough to me, but, I was never the kind of player that turns off animations in 99% of circumstances. Sometimes waiting for the AI to spend all its OP feels like it takes forever.

Took another crack at this with a fresh warband last night.

And I'm seriously confused what half the last difficulty updates really did to the game.

5% health bonus on normal? Is that why I'm fighting Skaven like me where their fucking Verminkin have 150 health while mine are barely breaking 110? Why all of their fighters hit for on average more than 30 damage per attack? I'm regularly fighting dual wielders from all warbands who hit for 50+ damage an attack, which is just about 50% life for most of my guys. If anything, fighters seem even more buffed than the last time I played. It's still manageable until you get that absolutely shit deployment but a lot of the fights I've had on normal/hard are on a knife's edge, where a miscalculation on your part or just bad luck will cost you a fighter going OOA.

In 5 or 6 matches I only got 4 fighters taken out and all those were full recoveries, and I've won all my matches but....it still doesn't sit well with me. Fighting on three fronts pretty much guarantees one of my guys is going down that match. Fighting on 4+ fronts is basically mathematically impossible to win unless you get really lucky. (Had one game where the entire Sisters of Sigmar failed 4 All Alone tests in one turn, turning a melee clusterfuck into a victory.)

It's like, with these difficulty increases, it's a lose/lose from the player's perspective. When you lose against odds like this, you feel like it's bullshit and the deck is stacked (which it is.) And when you win....you just feel that much worse about the AI because even when they effectively have 2 to 3 more warband members than you worth of HP you can still completely beat their ass.

The game actually seems harder starting out now. You get rewarded significantly less wyrdstone on normal, and the AI now just stampeding toward your fighters means you get about 1 to 2 turns to loot nearby wyrdstone before you're completely stuck in a team fight. Money seems hard to scrape together. Even after my first shipment, I can barely afford to train some new skills, putting me that much farther behind the AI who clearly is buying up skills on their guys. At least for now, I'm feeling the financial pressure to win and do well but with how fights are it's kind of an unwelcome pressure. I've actually had to sell inventory items to make my payroll for the day.

They've added a lot more sfx to combat finally which makes the presentation a little better. Although I hate the Skaven pain yelps, they sound like a regular person's voice that they ran through a couple filters. They've also done some UI work to make the transmission of information better during combat and when things happen. Although some of that is still of questionable value (why can you not just print the warp effect that gets applied when you gather wyrdstone. Why do I constantly have to open up the buffs/debuffs overlay when you could just print the effect name to the screen when the event fires?)

Also let me put my Black Rat hero in fucking heavy armor already. ><

Even though people complained about the AI not getting into the fight in previous builds.....I'm pining for a return to it. You could actually explore the maps, get some loot and maneuver. The AI actually cared about gathering wyrdstone and there was kind of the illusion that it was a real warband. Now? It's a team deathmatch where there's tons of shit you'd like to go see and collect but you don't get the chance to, and you're fighting a numerically superior AI who will just throw all its guys into the fight as soon as it can (pathing bugs and shenanigans aside.)

The game is engaging and part of that is due to the knowledge the AI can royally fuck you up if you let it. But man does it get me swearing and angry when I just simply run the numbers and evaluate the odds. It's really strange how you are so outclassed numerically pretty much always and yet you can win consistently. (Until I guess Brutal and Deadly missions.)

It doesn't say great things about a game when even with inflated difficulty like this, it's winnable. I'm honestly not sure what the missing ingredient is with this game's overall play. There is something about either how things are structured or expected to play out that doesn't happen, either because of the existence of some facet (map size, terrain, deployment, w/e) or because of the absence of one. If I picture myself playing pretty much any other TBS strategy game where the odds are this stacked against me, I'd fold immediately.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 04:52:18 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
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Stuebi

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #181 on: November 15, 2015, 10:47:39 am »

That's actually a pretty good explanation for the feeling I have as well. It just feels like the Dev's are DESPERATELY trying to make the game feel as unfair as humanly possible, in the name of "We are teh hardcorez".

I think in Singleplayer at least, Skaven is probably the easiest Warband to go with. High initiative and movement means you get to move early and very far at that. So you can actually Loot some stuff and choose your engagements. On other Warbands, a lot of the time, going for Loot or Wyrdstone means sacrificing almost a third of your movement allowance. And considering the AI homes in on you the moment the game starts, you cant afford that kind of stuff.

I'm also pissed that Mutations are random, and not bought like other skills. Like that Mutant you built for prolonged melee engagements? Well up yours, he now gets thousand eyes and featureless face. Or even better, an arm mutation so he's forever stuck in dual wield.

Or of course, you get a Brutal ambush against Skaven, who OOA three of your guys on TURN ONE, leading to a rout. You just have stand there for a minute and take in the amount of stupidity that went into these kinds of mechanics.


Oh, and anyone that finds hard or higher bullsh*t now. Just WAIT until you get to Impressives. Get ready for those Spawns, Ogres and Maidens who have more hp than your regular dudes COMBINED. With up to 4 attacks and a decent Dodge Chance!
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English isnt my mother language, so feel free to correct me if I make a mistake in my post.

nenjin

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #182 on: November 15, 2015, 05:02:56 pm »

Speaking of Impressives...

I was doing Skaven Story Mission 1 last night. I was fightiing the Ogre and doing things like throwing Sticky Sludge at him while my archers chipped away at his HP. Eventually the AI bugs out and basically puts his nose in a wall for the majority of the rest of the game.

Up until now, it'd been a flawlessly executed mission. But by the time I was taking out the Ogre, reinforcements were spawning. With the 350 HP wrecking ball that is the Ogre still in play, my attention was getting divided and I was moving guys around a lot to try and snipe the ogre while dealing with adds.

Finally get the Ogre down to like 30 health and decide I'm going to award my Assassin the kill rather than like, Fylch, which would have been the smart, safe move.

My leader had about 90 HP at the time and I get him into melee, 95% chance to hit....first attack....Miss.

Not Dodge. Miss. Ok, well, great, that's why I have two attacks. Queue it up....

MISS. WTF GAME.

On the Ogre's next turn, he crits my leader for like 60, then finishes him off with another attack.

Leader out for 5 days, with 5 experience lost to Amnesia, -10 Ranged/Melee hit chance and a -1 to Accuracy and Max Accuracy.

*sigh* That one kill completely fucked up my schedule for the next 4 days until I eventually had to hire another Assassin leader just to get running again. It hasn't crippled him as a character, but it basically shaved off the last two or three levels worth of melee effectivenes as far as his chances to hit go.

Sometimes, game, I just want to win without getting royally fucked as soon as an opening presents itself. Christ, you give me a bugged Ogre, completely at my mercy and then arbitrarily decide that he's just not going to get hit and guarantee OOA on one of my best characters and there is no indication short of going to the logs to figure out why.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 05:06:03 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Anvilfolk

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #183 on: November 15, 2015, 10:59:39 pm »

Yeah, that's one of the problems I find with a lot of miniature gaming. The variance of the results is just so huge. It's true for Blood Bowl, Mordheim, Battletech...

I've definitely had that problem before. And then one of my heroes lost an arm. THANKS GAME. Now I guess I can just call her The Dodge Sister.

nenjin

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #184 on: November 16, 2015, 11:26:07 am »

I think the AI for impressives is just generally fucked.

Did Skaven Story Missions I-II, and spent several turns Oil Bombing the Rat Ogre while he sulked at the entrance to the tunnel w/o moving. Only when I moved a guy past the entrance to the tunnel did the Rat Ogre seem to wake up and remember he'd been getting fire bombed and sniped for the last two turns.

It's honestly pretty shameful the scripted AI is in the place it is, and they're this close to release. The normal battle AI, fine, I can understand that, it's complex. The scripted story AI should be a lot less difficult to make work right though.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Majestic7

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #185 on: November 16, 2015, 12:05:07 pm »

I think their explanation is (ironically) the same as for the artificial difficulty - single player is supposed to be jsut training/placeholder for multiplayer.
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ZebioLizard2

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #186 on: November 16, 2015, 12:33:49 pm »

Ugh, that's the worst excuse because it doesn't train you at all, you mostly pick up bad habits because you end up having to learn how to abuse buggy AI mechanics in order to actually win and do anything, because it's no longer a normal game when something is horrifically overstatted to fight you early on.
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nenjin

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #187 on: November 16, 2015, 12:39:22 pm »

Part of me is debating getting into MP, just to see if all the work and short comings of SP have amounted to something worthwhile.

Then again, I'm imagining chasing down a high movement speed Skaven team for 45 minutes while they loot the map as the way a lot of games go.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 12:51:18 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

nenjin

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #188 on: November 16, 2015, 02:05:41 pm »

The game has gotten its release date: November 19th.

That is nowhere near enough time to get the game fully presentable IMO.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Mephansteras

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Releases 11/19. Ready or not here it comes.
« Reply #189 on: November 16, 2015, 04:57:52 pm »

Shame. The more you guys talk about this the less I want it. And I had such hopes for it when it was first announced. :/
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nenjin

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Releases 11/19. Ready or not here it comes.
« Reply #190 on: November 16, 2015, 07:17:15 pm »

It's bizarre.

There's bugs, old bugs, still present in the game. Difficulty is frontloaded with cheap and ultimately uninteresting mechanics (more HP, more damage, more guys) to the degree it would be patently unfair in the hands of a crack, highly competent AI. The AI only gives you a challenging surprise maybe 10% of the time. (The RNG provides the rest.) The game has divided loyalties between SP and MP. Mechanics are on the "inelegant and numbers-heavy" side of things. The UI is a console UI for a game that isn't on consoles yet. The devs have an unfortunate preoccupation with trying to be hardcore while not having the talent to execute that vision in an entertaining way.

And yet, I can't stop fucking playing it.

Maybe I'd put it like this: aesthetically Mordheim is pretty much everything I want short of "that AAA shine." Everything looks right, gives off the right vibe. It's impossible not to get at least a little immersed once you're in the battlescape. I think it's impossible for any Mordheim fan to not appreciate the game on that front. Mechanically though it's cludgy and favors randonmness and percentages over novelty.

If I took all the negatives from my first paragraph in isolation, I'd not be playing the game. And yet there's more to it than that. There's real artistry and love of the game here. And while maybe I'm just a sucker for managing a team of fighters and watching their stats steadily increase, it's kept me playing for over 40 hours.

So in my "final" analysis, this IS a game that scratches that Mordheim itch. When I'm in love with Mordheim, this is the game I'm going to go to, and it's going to satisfy that urge. It may not do it perfectly. It may not help in making me feel like a brilliant player. It may frustrate me with the random hardcoreness of the game, the AI that needs help to provide a competitive game until it careens off the difficulty scale at the upper end, the bugs that I assume will eventually be ironed out.

But every time I'm actually playing I'm dialed in to the experience. I enjoy the tactical and strategic gameplay despite all the shortcomings and I can't help but want to play another match. Maybe I'm just an idiot though and have bad taste.

It's not a game you'll love right out of the box. But I think it's a game you can easily learn to enjoy and appreciate IF you're a fan of the setting and IF you're willing to put the time in to know the game beyond more than a cursory 45 minute glance. It takes significantly more play time than that to appreciate everything the game offers, the way it all eventually blends. The fun is there. It's just not a flawless Mordheim game, and likely never will be. When it's on sale for $10 to $20, I think it's an ok buy and does provide long-term playability (especially if you decide to get into MP.) $40 can be a bit steep for a game I have to give this many qualifiers for.

In the end, I think the devs had a really ambitious goal in making this game and how they were making it. I said a long time back, this seemed like the kind of game that could crush a new dev house. And I definitely believe they bit off more than they could chew. That said, I think they made it through to the other side, albeit looking bruised. If anything Mordheim: City of the Damned showed me that mechanics which look good on paper can be a lot harder to translate into fun in a video game than you might think. They could have plopped Mordheim's table top mechanics directly into the game and I think you'd have had some of the same problems.

In some ways, despite all the reworks to the core game concept for the PC, I think their desire to stay really faithful to Mordheim's design is the reason the game is like it is. They translated the table top experience to a video game to a fault. They expected, I think, gameplay to take the long form, which it still totally can in MP. But in SP the performance the AI needed to really fulfill that was beyond their reach. It was just too challenging to make an AI that:

-Doesn't blob up and zerg rush the player.
-Doesn't get spread out and feed one guy at a time into the meatgrinder.
-Doesn't make the player wait an eternity to find it.
-Gathers warpstone and explores just like a player does.
-Builds fighters in an interesting and balanced way.
-Makes mistakes.
-Doesn't make too many mistakes.
-Uses all the skills and tactics a player would.

And so instead of focusing on making a fun, playable AI that could handle the environment it operated in gracefully, they tried to make a complicated human-like AI that wasn't up to snuff, and resulted in a lot of game-y fixes and band aids to get it playable (adequately to poorly depending on how challenged you need to be.) And so now we have an AI that:

-Makes too many boneheaded decisions/mistakes.
-Doesn't really build interesting or really effective fighters.
-Spreads out THEN zerg rushes the player 1 or 2 guys at a time. The real challenge comes in killing them before they bunch up to the point you're fighting the whole team.
-Doesn't really bother with the appearance of doing anything other than trying to kill the player's fighters.

And instead of long-form play against the AI, which is what I think most players were hoping for, we have these short, brutal, all-in team fight missions with a direct, blunt AI.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 10:33:25 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Majestic7

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Releases 11/19. Ready or not here it comes.
« Reply #191 on: November 17, 2015, 01:33:38 am »

Honestly Mordheim reminds me of some games from the 1990s. It is ugly, bulky, unfair, crazy and cheats on you, yet I can't stop lov... wait, am I describing a crazy ex or a game? Anyway, the game has glaring amount of horrible design choices. Despite this, I like it a lot. I just keep noise about the misgivings because I can see the potential for a fucking classic and it is being wasted. There would be many ways to tune the game and make it excellent, but now it is destined to be stuck in a niche ghetto. You know, it is like having a very smart friend who does nothing with his smartness and is content just sitting home watching TV 24/7.

It is a huge shame.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 01:44:09 am by Majestic7 »
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Stuebi

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Update 8.9. The great battle for playability.
« Reply #192 on: November 17, 2015, 06:32:29 am »

The game has gotten its release date: November 19th.

That is nowhere near enough time to get the game fully presentable IMO.

Wait what? They're gonna release this in TWO DAYS?

But...how....why...

There's still so much stuff that isnt fixed yet! The AI still regularly falls over it's own feet, Warband balance is a giant, hot mess and it still loads so long that you could probably play a game of proper Mordheim in between missions.

Oh man, they're LUCKY if this doesnt get slammed at least a little bit.
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sambojin

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Releases 11/19. Ready or not here it comes.
« Reply #193 on: November 17, 2015, 11:36:49 am »

Wow. That's tomorrow.

They have pvp don't they? Or seni-balanced pve progression. Well, ummm, at least it's on my pay-day.

Good work!
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nenjin

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Re: Mordheim - City of the Damned. Releases 11/19. Ready or not here it comes.
« Reply #194 on: November 17, 2015, 11:40:32 am »

They have pvp don't they? Or seni-balanced pve progression. Well, ummm, at least it's on my pay-day.

The game has both those things.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti
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