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Author Topic: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at  (Read 1023 times)

YAHG

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Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« on: August 17, 2014, 12:16:02 pm »
Assuming they have the labor enabled, if a Dwarf looking for a job to do would pick something (out of available list) that they have more skill in over something they do not have less skill in.

i.e. Master Armorer (novice farmer) is allowed to farm and make armor, with both jobs enabled given a shot at the armor job he will pick that one over farming etc.

I have a feeling this will make forts run a little smoother especially when people arn't micromanaging the labors neurotic overseer style :)).

It also seems to be a reasonable things for the dwarves to have preferences for what jobs they pick, I mean most people do prefer to do things they are good at (assuming they are allowed in their labor settings  :o).
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Bumber

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2014, 03:23:02 pm »
We're getting more control over job priorities at some point.

Some people like to try new things, too.
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GavJ

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2014, 04:28:36 pm »
A possible issue is that I think a lot of times, jobs look for dwarves to do them, not the other way around, with respect to pathing algorithms.  Could be wrong, but if not, this would require more lag.
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

YAHG

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2014, 06:58:01 pm »
Quote from: GavJ on August 17, 2014, 04:28:36 pm
A possible issue is that I think a lot of times, jobs look for dwarves to do them, not the other way around

A job wanting to be done by someone skilled wouldn't be bad either :))
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GavJ

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 07:09:21 pm »
Right, but the REASON I think it does that is to minimize path algorithm time. If you search out from the job, then you can just stop as soon as you get to the nearest relevant dwarf.

If, however, you need to search all the way out to ALL dwarves, to figure out which one wants to do it the most, then you might increase the amount of pathing calculations by a factor of 10 or 20 or who knows.

Or more likely, you'd re-code it to find the happiest dwarf and search from him to the job. But even then, he's likely to be further away than the nearest eligible dwarf, which means

1) The pathing still takes longer (maybe only 2x longer or something)
2) This ha sgameplay implications, since your fort runs more slowly and more time is spent walking. Is that more or less important than a dwarf doing something he wants to do and getting a thought? This is unclear. it would be nice to have a toggle option or something.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 07:11:14 pm by GavJ »
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

dudlol

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 07:18:10 pm »
Expanding on this, a dwarf that is more skilled than another dwarf should be able to kick them out of a workshop and take over their task(s).

Edit: Perhaps legendary dwarves should get happy/unhappy thoughts for doing jobs they are not legendary at, the strength of the thought being based on the skill level nd the type of thought being based on their personalities? Some may hate doing things they are not good at, while others may enjoy the challenge of learning.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:00:40 pm by dudlol »
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King Mir

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 10:03:54 pm »
I agree with GavJ. I'd rather keep the current system of finding the closest eligible dwarf for a job, instead of making dwarves decide for themselves what to do. Instead, dwarves should just feel unhappy about doing things they hate, and good about doing things they like, or working with things they like.
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YAHG

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2014, 12:01:29 am »
Quote from: dudlol on August 18, 2014, 07:18:10 pm
Expanding on this, a dwarf that is more skilled than another dwarf should be able to kick them out of a workshop and take over their task(s).

Edit: Perhaps legendary dwarves should get happy/unhappy thoughts for doing jobs they are not legendary at, the strength of the thought being based on the skill level nd the type of thought being based on their personalities? Some may hate doing things they are not good at, while others may enjoy the challenge of learning.

Aye, perhaps dwarves with high LIBERALISM can get into trouble with the sheriff for disobeying work orders (labor assignments) 8)

All sorts of great ways to make dwarves more engaging and immersive.

Is your metal smith a uber mighty creative genius who is a bit of a rock star doing jobs he wasn't assigned? !!FUN!!
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breadman

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2014, 11:40:05 am »
Quote from: GavJ on August 17, 2014, 07:09:21 pm
Right, but the REASON I think it does that is to minimize path algorithm time. If you search out from the job, then you can just stop as soon as you get to the nearest relevant dwarf.

This assumes, however, that there are more relevant dwarfs available than jobs.  This is sometimes the case, but usually not; idlers are usually either on break, or are set not to perform any of the myriad jobs available.  Meanwhile, it causes odd situations where dwarves are travelling crazy distances to the jobs that have chosen them, ignoring nearly identical jobs two steps away.

I would much prefer that the dwarf choose what to do from available jobs.  Order the list by the dwarf's preference values, path toward the nearest of the highest-valued jobs, and stop when the pathfinding hits any of them.  Bonus points for adding the distance heuristic to the job's value, letting the dwarf select a slightly lower-valued job nearby over a higher-valued job on the other side of the map.

If no jobs are available, let the dwarf select an idling task, such as talking with a friend.  If those tasks take a set amount of time before letting the dwarf check for jobs again, then there's no reason for the jobs to be selecting dwarves; the new job will get looked at as soon as someone's ready for something to do, but idle dwarves aren't spamming pathfinding every tick.
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GavJ

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 01:21:45 pm »
The end result in distance efficiency is the same either way, breadman. If anything distances are greater with dwarves choosing, because instead of pure distance, you will get dwarves happier to do it but further away winning sometimes.

Whether that's worth it is subjective.
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Niddhoger

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2014, 04:26:43 pm »
I also agree with GavJ.  However, most of the stress of micromanaging labors to ensure only quality dwarves make an item (while also allowing for idle dwarves to pick up slack if hte other is busy/on break) comes from the obtuse UI.  If a third party tool (like dwarf therapist) would be merged into the game proper, then micromanaging would be as easy as checking the spreadsheet there and enabling/disabling across your whole fortress as needed.  Its still some micromanagement, but infinitely better than vanilla.  I simply refuse to play the game without it anymore (sure, 7 dwarves isn't so bad... bad after a wave or two its just atrocious).
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GavJ

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Re: Dwarves prefer to do what they are good at
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2014, 06:55:40 pm »
Agreed about UI being the main problem.

A GUI API is preferable to merging anything in particular, but failing that, there are a few utilities that are pretty much universally revered, like as you mention, therapist.
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.