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Author Topic: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL  (Read 13928 times)

Kamamura

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2014, 06:43:33 pm »

In a world where an oak leaf can cut you in half, and a thrown strawberry can punch your brain out of your skull, all theory is like dust in the wind.
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ullrich

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2014, 11:29:26 pm »

For some good dwarven combat I would recommend the some of the later parts of the Drizzt Do'Urden Books by R.A. Salvatore (I think it happens in the The Hunter's Blades Trilogy, have to reread them sometime to be sure has been a few years).

Against pretty massive numbers of orcs the "heavy infantry" dwarves also had a few throwing axes/hammers to break up the charge before it hits the shield walls.
They entrenched their positions whenever possible.
Used "berserker" dwarves with spiked/bladed heavy armour and pretty much just throw themselves at the tightly packed groups of lightly armored enemies and "roll around".
Not sure if I recall this correctly but I think they had something along the lines of covered pits beyond the front lines that dwarves hid in to ambush and make chaos in the middle of the enemies formations and take pressure of the front lines.
For taking a tunnel system they charged the passageways from behind a massive shield that may have been spiked, this would be like a 1 piece shield wall with spears so to speak. They then sealed the tunnels exits and filled it with a volatile volcanic gas and blew up part of a mountain to devastate a large part of the orc horde.

These tactics seem very in line with DF I think. We just need spiked/bladed armour & shields for the berzerker squads.

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Jimmy

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2014, 03:52:53 am »

Dwarven defence is unquestionably superlative to any other race in the game, but a few other points should bear mentioning.

"When night came on, bundles of twigs were fastened to the horns of some 2000 oxen and set on fire, the terrified animals being then quickly driven along the mountain side towards the passes which were beset by the enemy."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

First, on the subject of traps. Sending your soldiers into the tunnels to be slaughtered is poor strategy, and with the need for traps to be reloaded or reset in the event of a jam they become trivial to bypass. Simply taking a herd of your livestock and tying lit torches to their tails will allow you to drive them into the tunnels, triggering the traps with minimal casualties.

"Logistics comprises the means and arrangements which work out the plans of strategy and tactics. Strategy decides where to act; logistics brings the troops to this point."
-Jomini: Precis de l' Art de la Guerre. (1838)

One of the biggest advantages in medieval warfare came from supply line logistics. Without a steady supply line, the army would run out of food and materiel well before encountering the enemy. The game abstracts the concepts to a great degree with invaders lacking requirements for food or drink, but in terms of dwarves in their mountainhomes the biggest advantage they have is the ability to feed the fortress from within. However the supply of fresh recruits to replace lost military requires breaking the siege, as without doing so no migrants will emigrate. Also it should be noted that dwarves, for all their skill with underground living, have little traditional naval warfare skill, and an invading army supplied by sea without any threat of retaliation will have strong logistical support.

"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where the enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike at him as hard as you can and as often as you can, and keep moving on."
- General Ulysses S. Grant

For all their strength in defending their mountainhomes against vastly superior numbers, eventually a small force of soldiers will need to eat, drink and rest from wounds. An invading army, on the other hand, can rotate fresh troops out against them purely with superior numbers. Hard, sudden attacks aimed at wounding the defenders followed by complete withdrawal will whittle down any defence the dwarves can muster. Should a determined invader use this tactic, with a siege preventing resupply of fresh recruits, no amount of formations or strategy will beat the force of their logistics.

"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
-Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980
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Zorbeltuss

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2014, 06:06:53 am »

Light or very light crossbows with a lever pull to reload faster would probably be fitting of dwarves, the lever also leaves the reloading arm in a perfect position to grab a bolt from the quiver and with lighter crossbows you would be capable of having the enemy in your sights (if the dwarves haven't invented the shoulder stock of course), historically lever action on crossbows were not cheap enough to put on light crossbows but in any fantasy story including dwarf fortress dwarven sensibilities do not stretch to economical feasibility and with small units it might actually be feasible anyway.

A slightly anachronistic thing that would be wrong for the dwarves would be some kind of bayonet, a hammer baynet would probably be out of the question but  there are historical examples of sword, spike and even axe bayonets, although the last has been historically very sparse, this would for a crossbowdwarf mean less equipment to carry with the downside that it would be very hard to fight with combined with shields.

On the offensive I'd think a dwarven army would also be somewhat anachronistic, of course it would use sappers as mentioned, but the highly trained, highly equipped and highly outnumbered infantrydwarf would probably resort to something like commando tactics (which is not fully unlike guerrilla tactics) using training and environment to their advantage.

I was meaning to write something about elves and goblins too, but I can't think of what at the moment.

/Zorbeltuss
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Deboche

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2014, 02:13:43 pm »

First, on the subject of traps. Sending your soldiers into the tunnels to be slaughtered is poor strategy, and with the need for traps to be reloaded or reset in the event of a jam they become trivial to bypass. Simply taking a herd of your livestock and tying lit torches to their tails will allow you to drive them into the tunnels, triggering the traps with minimal casualties.
I think when moving fortress parts are implemented, traps are gonna go to another level and make fortresses truly unbreachable from the outside.

And since you mention logistics, you need to consider the underground connections of different fortresses and even the invasions that may occur from the underground, making the terrain a lot more like the above ground, with dwarves having the home turf.
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Moon Label

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2014, 08:07:47 pm »

In a world where an oak leaf can cut you in half, and a thrown strawberry can punch your brain out of your skull, all theory is like dust in the wind.
You would think that this type of physics would apply to rain as well.

It has started raining.
The raindrop slams into the Soaper's skull, tearing the skin, crushing the skull, and slamming her into the ground!
The soaper has died.

Not to derail, though: all of this speculation might actually turn out to be true in-game when the physics, military, and economic arcs are realized.
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Miuramir

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2014, 02:41:57 pm »

Dwarven defence is unquestionably superlative to any other race in the game, but a few other points should bear mentioning.

"When night came on, bundles of twigs were fastened to the horns of some 2000 oxen and set on fire, the terrified animals being then quickly driven along the mountain side towards the passes which were beset by the enemy."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

First, on the subject of traps. Sending your soldiers into the tunnels to be slaughtered is poor strategy, and with the need for traps to be reloaded or reset in the event of a jam they become trivial to bypass. Simply taking a herd of your livestock and tying lit torches to their tails will allow you to drive them into the tunnels, triggering the traps with minimal casualties.

This is a good way to deal with forts that rely overly on the (admittedly overpowered) cage trap.  But an invading army that sends most of their cattle into a fort with even a basic chasm will find that they've merely increased their opponent's meat stocks at the cost of their own.  Generally, your first line of serious defense should be something that doesn't saturate easily, or even improves with volume; the Durin's Bridge plan has always seemed a good idea to me.  The more invaders that try and cram across, the more of them are likely to fall into the depths. 

Of course, with the new climbing rules, it's more important to smooth your chasm walls and not skimp on the height.  Giant cave spiders are even more terrifying than they have been.  The only *serious* threat to a well-organized mountain hall are fireproof flying building destroyers, either in quantity or with trap-avoid. 

Quote
"Logistics comprises the means and arrangements which work out the plans of strategy and tactics. Strategy decides where to act; logistics brings the troops to this point."
-Jomini: Precis de l' Art de la Guerre. (1838)

One of the biggest advantages in medieval warfare came from supply line logistics. Without a steady supply line, the army would run out of food and materiel well before encountering the enemy. The game abstracts the concepts to a great degree with invaders lacking requirements for food or drink, but in terms of dwarves in their mountainhomes the biggest advantage they have is the ability to feed the fortress from within. However the supply of fresh recruits to replace lost military requires breaking the siege, as without doing so no migrants will emigrate.

I think you underestimate the power of DF dwarves being able to feed themselves in a closed ecosystem.  Both historically and in middle-earth, sieges could last years against durable fortresses that simply couldn't be taken; but even Khazad-dum didn't produce enough food to feed itself.  No bastion of conceivable scale could both be impregnable against assault, and large enough to be self-sufficient in food and water.  But besieging a DF mountain hall is more like besieging the drow in the Underdark; they can "live off the land" better than the invaders can. 

All mountain halls, by contrast, can have unlimited food, drink, and magma.  Most have unlimited water, which also means unlimited stone, and unlimited glass is not uncommon.  Unlimited wood is doable, although production rates are possibly a concern; similarly, there's no limit on dwarves themselves, but production is slow. 

The degree to which an established mountain hall is self-sufficient is unprecedented in reality, and even in most fiction.  The vast majority of foes will expend far more resources on maintaining a siege than the dwarves do in withstanding it.  And remember, the dwarves are at home living their everyday life, and you are in the field, far from fields and family.  Mortal besiegers need to worry about how the rest of their kingdoms will fare if they plan to spend decades surrounding a mountain that doesn't seem to even acknowledge they're out there. 

Of course, eventually foes capable of even slow hard-rock mining will probably be in the game.  Humans may rarely be up to it, but the immortal races can take their time.  "How are the mines coming?"  "Oh, we're getting at least a square per season, sometimes two; the new shaped-wooden picks are doing much better.  I figure we'll have a gallery driven to separate their citadel from the magma in well under 500 years, and barring anything unexpected should have this won in three, maybe four thousand years tops.  What are you doing for lunch after?"  Of course, "something unexpected" may well be the dwarves finishing their "this mountain didn't start as a volcano, but it is now" megaproject, and flooding the world with lava.  Eventually besiegers will learn that they need substantial dikes or a height advantage. 

I expect that against high-tech foes (currently, only rival dwarven kingdoms) we'll eventually end up with something like the Siege of Turn but in 3D, with elaborate mines and counter-mines eventually turning the entire mountain into an anthill.  Systems to "regenerate" the mountain will become increasingly important. 

Quote
Also it should be noted that dwarves, for all their skill with underground living, have little traditional naval warfare skill, and an invading army supplied by sea without any threat of retaliation will have strong logistical support.

That varies with setting; note that *no* races in DF currently have naval warfare skill :)  In some, dwarves are Viking-like, and the terror of the northern seas; we'll just have to wait for it.  Then there's the whole "who needs boats if you have unlimited magma" approach.  To a dwarf, it's possible that wasting time with boats would look like fooling around with zeppelins do to us; unstable, weather-dependent, low load ratings, and with an unfortunate tendency to burst into flames at a bad time.  Why, for a small fraction of the effort needed to create and train one of these "navies", you could have obsidian bridges and tunnels humming with minecart traffic.  (Or to put it another way, for dwarves it may be more logical to build the Chunnel than bother with all that liquid sloshing about up top.) 
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BoredVirulence

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2014, 03:03:43 pm »

I generally agree about logistics. Except everyone seems to forget that fortresses are supposed to link deep sites to the surface. There should be an underground network. And the caverns are far more foreign to humans or elves than seas to dwarves. Its also far more useful, because those underground networks can lead to any fortress, navies are only useful by the sea / large rivers. Defeating a fortress would require fighting down in the caverns, far from supplies, easily surrounded by hostile dwarves and other nasties.

Also, dwarves are known for traps that don't jam, automated magma chambers, automated pit traps. These are far more difficult to undermine. For a fortress like this, I see mining into the mountain the only possible way around it, if you can get around it. I could easily see fortresses with miles of walls filled with automated minecart shotguns. I can't even imagine the carnage...
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Crashmaster

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2014, 03:44:43 pm »

A dwarven fortress might fall easier to subterfuge then assault. Suicide squad sneaks in disguised as a trade caravan, liasion kills the mayor, the rest slaughter a few pets, burn the booze stockpile and watch the place tantrum itself apart.

Beneviento

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2014, 04:17:14 pm »

On the other hand, cavern routes either need to conform to preexisting caverns, which should be rare despite them underlying the whole world in DF, or be dug by dwarves, which should require about the same amount of work as something like the suez canal, which is daunting considering this kind of thing wasn't even attempted until well after DF's timeframe. This would bar new sites, the kind of place that would get attacked, from having cavern routes most of the time. Also the new forts would lack the kind of cisterns and irrigation more established forts would have so their farms would have to be in dirt layers which could be dug to and captured by humans or elves, making starving out the fort easy.

As for well-trapped forts, I can imagine besiegers redirecting streams or other water sources into fort entrances to flood the fort and force the dwarves out. They could also use smoke or poisonous gas to do the same. Finally, traps for humans, elves or gobbos would not be the best against the megabeasts that tend to be drawn to rich forts. Dragons are the bane of dwaves because their large size makes weapon, stonefall, or cage traps are useless against them, they can fly over pits and chasms, and their fre and smoke would be hell in a cramped tunnel. In fact I can see humans or gobs emulating dragonfire to attack dwarves using primitive flamethrowers like the Byzantines may have used, though elves would probably disdain such things for their possibility to cause forest fires.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 04:45:37 pm by Beneviento »
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Miuramir

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2014, 11:52:28 pm »

On the other hand, cavern routes either need to conform to preexisting caverns, which should be rare despite them underlying the whole world in DF, or be dug by dwarves, which should require about the same amount of work as something like the suez canal, which is daunting considering this kind of thing wasn't even attempted until well after DF's timeframe.

Poor choice of example :)  Roughly the third serious take on a Mediterranean - Red Sea canal,  "... Ptolemy II, who made a trench 100 feet wide, 30 feet deep and about 35 miles long, as far as the Bitter Lakes." ... in about 250 BC.  This is well before DF's cutoff by any measure, and well before steel tools as well.  We still don't know for sure whether any ancient civilization managed the whole route, but there were several serious and/or partial attempts. 

Dwarves mine *fast*.  A rough estimation is that the main Culebra Cut in the Panama Canal removed about 76,000,000 cubic yards.  If we assume rough 2 x 2 x 3 meter (used by Toady as an approximation at least at one point), that's 12 cubic meters per square.  Call it 6,333,333 DF squares.  An embark square is 48 x 48 squares; so equivalent to 2,749 embark squares x 1 square deep.  The default embark is 4 x 4 embark squares, so excavating the main part of the Panama Canal cut is equivalent to digging out a 4x4 embark about 172 levels down.  A megaproject for sure, but not *that* hard.  Doing this with humans took about 6,000 men 9 years, with the aid of massive steam shovels, multiple rail lines, etc. 
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GavJ

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2014, 12:20:18 am »

Summarizing a species as a particular unit type seems odd.

Humans have 40 bazillion unit types, why would dwarves have one? They wouldn't. You need to analyze only in particular specific contexts for differences without trivializing what would be a rich library full of military tactics in reality.

It sort of reminds me of when they do stuff like make an entire Star Wars world ALL just jungle, or something.
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Beneviento

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2014, 01:01:28 am »

Poor choice of example :)  Roughly the third serious take on a Mediterranean - Red Sea canal,  "... Ptolemy II, who made a trench 100 feet wide, 30 feet deep and about 35 miles long, as far as the Bitter Lakes." ... in about 250 BC.  This is well before DF's cutoff by any measure, and well before steel tools as well.  We still don't know for sure whether any ancient civilization managed the whole route, but there were several serious and/or partial attempts. 

Dwarves mine *fast*.  A rough estimation is that the main Culebra Cut in the Panama Canal removed about 76,000,000 cubic yards.  If we assume rough 2 x 2 x 3 meter (used by Toady as an approximation at least at one point), that's 12 cubic meters per square.  Call it 6,333,333 DF squares.  An embark square is 48 x 48 squares; so equivalent to 2,749 embark squares x 1 square deep.  The default embark is 4 x 4 embark squares, so excavating the main part of the Panama Canal cut is equivalent to digging out a 4x4 embark about 172 levels down.  A megaproject for sure, but not *that* hard.  Doing this with humans took about 6,000 men 9 years, with the aid of massive steam shovels, multiple rail lines, etc. 
That's pretty cool! I had no idea that that kind of thing was engineered so far back! While I now can see that such projects would be feasible, how long did might it have taken Ptolemy II to build his trench, given that other 'megaprojects' in that era such as the Parthenon took 15 years to build? Also, one thing that bothers me a little bit is that dwarves probably wouldn't have the kind of man(dwarf?)power that either Ptolemy or the head engineers of the Panama Canal had, putting another obstacle in place for creating cavern transport routes. While this might not be a problem for larger forts, it would again be the smaller newer outposts that would have trouble, and it would be those outposts that humans or elves would attack. Other than territorial disputes and attempts to trade wood, humans and elves don't really have much of a beef with dwarves, so if they attacked, they would attack new outposts that either were founded in disputed land or didn't have traders who knew not to trade wood, and it would be these new outposts that would not be able to be supplied from the caverns.
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And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: 'I served in the Assaulted Lanterns Magma Artillery' - King Id I of the Assaulted Lanterns

BoredVirulence

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2014, 09:59:26 am »

... As for well-trapped forts, I can imagine besiegers redirecting streams or other water sources into fort entrances to flood the fort and force the dwarves out... Dragons are the bane of dwaves because their large size makes weapon, stonefall, or cage traps are useless against them, they can fly over pits and chasms...

My favorite drowning trap is easy to open, which would redirect any water through the main entrance to a sink somewhere. It would truly be pointless to redirect a river to the mouth of my fortress. Not to mention a magma chamber could be used to obsidianize the water, producing a wall and protecting the fortress. Not to mention how easy it is to seal off a fortress. Besides, I would expect a mature fortress to defend its main gate with marksdwarves, making working at the entrance very hazardous, but with enough casualties you could eventually get a hold. But that really removes the easy way to disable the front entrance, and brings the siege back to a state of attrition.

Also, dragons don't fly, and traps work perfectly well on them. Cage traps work very well on them, so that's a poor choice. Also, complex traps like drowning chambers will easily kill a dragon. Hardly the bane of dwarves, more of the bane of booze stockpiles.

I will concede a new fortress might not have its underground network set up. Anything over 10 years probably has such a network. And that's assuming the entire world isn't supposed to be covered in caverns.
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Krewl

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Re: A long essay about dwarven military vs. RL
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2014, 10:50:37 am »

I do believe that sieging a dwarven fortress would be a total nightmare, and an extraordinary feat to conquer. The most common way to conquer a fortress is to starve the defenders, but the dwarves can grow crops in their underground farms to keep them supplied with food and booze, they can also pasture pigs underground. I also do believe that the dwarves would construct defences against tactics such as smoking them out with smoke or poisonous gases, or drowning with water. If you try to invade a dwarfen fortress you'll face a sealed of wall in the mountain, with a self-sustaining population without the need to visit the world above, since dwarfes prefer the lives in their tunnels and halls over the life under the sky. It's also possible that the dwarfes have tunnels reaching to nearby fortresses and so they wouldn't be totally isolated. The first few levels of a dwarfen fortress could even be dedicated to defence, trade and military, and so during a siege these levels could be sealed of from the rest of the fortress during a siege.

Also, the dwarfes usualy have some tricks up their sleeves, like flooding the entire area around their fortress with lava. The dwarves aren't an offensiva race, but they do excell in defence, and their whole way of life makes them able to isolate themselves from the world and still live thrive. The biggest danger the dwarves face is their own greed, and their downfall would probably come from digging to deep...

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