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Author Topic: Why don't dwarves use spears?  (Read 10397 times)

Uristsonsonson

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Why don't dwarves use spears?
« on: August 13, 2014, 04:07:33 am »

I've always kind of wondered this. Surely a phalanx of spears and shields would be better for guarding tight underground tunnels than axes and hammers?
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Duuvian

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2014, 04:20:53 am »

Dwarves can use any weapon you can assign them in fort mode. Some dwarves are too small to use the big ones maybe, not sure about that. You can make your own spears, they aren't considered a foreign weapon.
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Uristsonsonson

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2014, 04:37:35 am »

I mean as like a typical weapon in fantasy. You always hear about them using axes, but wouldn't those be hard to swing in cramped tunnels?
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Sephimaru

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2014, 05:02:05 am »

I'm sure there was enough room for an axe swing in moria.

When I first saw an spear wielding dwarf in DF I was like "well thats not very dwarfy", but almost every time my first legendary weapon user is a speardwarf so I'm okay with that, as long as they kick ass.
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Kolnukbyne

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2014, 06:38:33 am »

I've always pictured dwarves as having gigantic cavernous halls which boasted their skills as miners, architects and craftsmendwarves.There's plenty of wild-romping room in them there halls!

Splint

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2014, 08:51:40 am »

I mean as like a typical weapon in fantasy. You always hear about them using axes, but wouldn't those be hard to swing in cramped tunnels?

Probably because generally spears are very long weapons in the minds of most people, and being a thrusting weapon coupled with thier length, doesn't play well with the image of a dwarf - that is, a short (and thus not spear-use friendly,) height and powerful arms and body made by hammering metals, shaping stone, and mining tunnels. The popular image of a dwarven warrior favors use of weapons that require putting a lot of oomph into a swing with lots of arm and body strength, like with an axe, sword, or hammer.

Phmcw

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2014, 10:18:54 am »

I don't see them being efficient in small mining tunnels. They'll suffer from the fact that the tunnels and natural cavern aren't straight.

Beside, one of the stron point of spears is that they work against horsemen, something utterly wasted in mines. I imagine that dwarves would be very "in your face" kind of fighters. Charging you with their shields first and then hacking you with their short axes/hammers/swords. That way, their size and strenght is an asset.
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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2014, 10:37:02 am »

I think it has to do with the fact that they're miners. They can swing hard, it's easy to transfer that skill to a hammer or axe.
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Chevaleresse

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2014, 01:26:30 pm »

I don't see them being efficient in small mining tunnels. They'll suffer from the fact that the tunnels and natural cavern aren't straight.

Beside, one of the stron point of spears is that they work against horsemen, something utterly wasted in mines. I imagine that dwarves would be very "in your face" kind of fighters. Charging you with their shields first and then hacking you with their short axes/hammers/swords. That way, their size and strenght is an asset.

Spears are effective against targets significantly larger than you are. Why wouldn't dwarves use them? There are all sorts of nasties that live underground.
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Miuramir

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2014, 02:12:33 pm »


Spears are effective against targets significantly larger than you are. Why wouldn't dwarves use them? There are all sorts of nasties that live underground.

Some thoughts:

* Spears are almost entirely thrusting weapons; this is good for deep puncture wounds against things with vital internal organs, and slipping between the joints of heavy scales or plate armor.  The odds of a "kill shot" against various nasty monsters are comparatively good, although still low; a high risk, high reward strategy. 

* Spears tend to assume plenty of wood.  Historically, most cultures had far more wood than metal, and a spear is an excellent way to produce a hybrid-material weapon that economizes on the metal.  This may be somewhat less likely for DF, especially deep dwarves and/or less pleasant embarks. 

* Spears should be a poor choice against "homogenous" (or effectively so) monsters; colossi, elementals, zombies, etc. 

* Spears and other polearms give an advantage when the foe is at range, and can be kept at bay; but once a foe gets well within their length, they are at a significant disadvantage.  Therefore, they're not such a good choice against fast, small, and/or sinuous monsters, highly skilled martial artists, etc. 

* A pure spear lacks options, and isn't that great of a tool in noncombat situations.  Something like a glaive-guisarme or voulge-guisarme has far more utility; you can thrust, cut, or particularly pull. 

Personally, my idealized realistic dwarven military would have three main weapon specialties: a front rank equipped with dwarf-scale bardiche; a second rank equipped with glaive-guisarme with a screw-joint in the shaft to allow use at full extension in larger areas and extending past the first rank, or with the bottom few feet unscrewed to give a more wieldy weapon for closer quarters; and one to three ranks of crossbows for alternate load-fire cycling. 

This gives you most of the advantages of the later pike-and-shot squares, but better capable of handing enclosed spaces and with additional protection against close-in foes to prevent fast-moving monsters in tight spaces or the equivalent of the zweihander doppelsoldner in open ground from wreaking havoc amongst your pikes.  It suffers somewhat by having slightly less maximum reach and somewhat lower percentage of reach weaponry against heavy cavalry charges, but that's less likely to be a problem for most dwarven polities than a typical Euro-human army. 

Note that the "giserne" depicted in the Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (see key fragment here) is intriguingly more like a longer-hafted bardiche (see the Oakeshotte interpretation on guisarme), but there are hints if you look closely that the reverse side had a warhammer-like striking head.  This would be particularly useful in causing shock damage against hard-armored foes that might damage the primary cutting blade more than they took damage from it. 
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Ogdibus

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 12:16:10 am »

You don't see dwarfs using spears often because they don't look macho enough in the minds of the people that make the media that they appear in.  It's got nothing to do with effectiveness, and everything to do with exaggerated imagery.  You can make an axe or hammer look heavy and solid more easily than a spear.  They use that to imagery reinforce the idea that a dwarf character is strong and resilient.  Realistically, they should probably have a spear and an axe or hammer, unless they couldn't afford to.
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Baffler

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 12:33:58 am »

I tend to arm most of my dwarves with spears, since it has always stuck in my mind as a peasant's sort of weapon and does reasonably well against armored and unarmored targets. Now that I'm a bit more comfortable modding, I gave them access to halberds to get the limb-chopping power of an axe, and the penetration a spear affords.

The adjustable-length glaive is an interesting idea, though I can see some problems with the haft being damaged by adjustment in real life. Not a problem in DF however. May I use it?
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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2014, 01:32:34 am »

You don't see dwarfs using spears often because they don't look macho enough in the minds of the people that make the media that they appear in.  It's got nothing to do with effectiveness, and everything to do with exaggerated imagery.  You can make an axe or hammer look heavy and solid more easily than a spear.  They use that to imagery reinforce the idea that a dwarf character is strong and resilient.  Realistically, they should probably have a spear and an axe or hammer, unless they couldn't afford to.
You wouldn't realistically have 2 weapons, unless it's a thrown spear. Thowring spears are good for harrying forces, and it would be plausible for dwarves to use them that way. I think a sling could be a better second weapon in that case: there's a lot of ammo in the mountains, and the length of the sling compensates for the shorter throwing arm better.

Splint

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2014, 04:34:30 am »

You don't see dwarfs using spears often because they don't look macho enough in the minds of the people that make the media that they appear in.  It's got nothing to do with effectiveness, and everything to do with exaggerated imagery.  You can make an axe or hammer look heavy and solid more easily than a spear.  They use that to imagery reinforce the idea that a dwarf character is strong and resilient.  Realistically, they should probably have a spear and an axe or hammer, unless they couldn't afford to.
You wouldn't realistically have 2 weapons, unless it's a thrown spear. Thowring spears are good for harrying forces, and it would be plausible for dwarves to use them that way. I think a sling could be a better second weapon in that case: there's a lot of ammo in the mountains, and the length of the sling compensates for the shorter throwing arm better.

I think he meant having a hammer or axe as a back-up weapon like any spearman would if they had any sense; even a kitchen knife would be better to have once the enemy got within hugging distance than a spear. Unless they feel like trying to beat the enemy to death with thier shield anyway.

Repseki

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Re: Why don't dwarves use spears?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2014, 04:52:49 am »

Unless they feel like trying to beat the enemy to death with thier shield anyway.

Which I find perfectly acceptable.

You don't see dwarfs using spears often because they don't look macho enough in the minds of the people that make the media that they appear in.  It's got nothing to do with effectiveness, and everything to do with exaggerated imagery.  You can make an axe or hammer look heavy and solid more easily than a spear.  They use that to imagery reinforce the idea that a dwarf character is strong and resilient.  Realistically, they should probably have a spear and an axe or hammer, unless they couldn't afford to.

This is my understanding of it too. It seems more an image problem than anything else. Especially with a large number of fantasy setting dwarves tending to have some anger issues, whether related to a height complex or not, which leads to a more aggressive up close combat style.

If Dwarves, as seen in fantasy, were a real thing, I'm sure their standing armies would have plenty of spears if needed.
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