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[macscarfe]

What is it that you are seeking here?

It's easy for me to understand what he is seeking.

However, it's easy for me to understand the "yucky taste" k33n speaks of without him explaining why.

Not easy for me at all.

In fact as a new to the forums lurker all I get from reading this thread is that a couple of people are seemingly determined to derail the thread for the sole purpose of keeping Masterworks in it's box ... presumably because it's unclean.

I downloaded Masterworks when I first tried DF, didn't like it was like being hit in the face by a baseball bat with no explanation as to who or why I was being hit. But given the tone of the posts from a number of people in this thread I'm determined to give it a second chance because anything that garners this much disgust is always worthy of a second look.

[Dyret]

In fact as a new to the forums lurker all I get from reading this thread is that a couple of people are seemingly determined to derail the thread for the sole purpose of keeping Masterworks in it's box ... presumably because it's unclean.

I know, right? It's like the civil rights struggle of our day!

[Devstorm]

What is it that you are seeking here?

It's easy for me to understand what he is seeking.

However, it's easy for me to understand the "yucky taste" k33n speaks of without him explaining why.

Not easy for me at all.

In fact as a new to the forums lurker all I get from reading this thread is that a couple of people are seemingly determined to derail the thread for the sole purpose of keeping Masterworks in it's box ... presumably because it's unclean.

I downloaded Masterworks when I first tried DF, didn't like it was like being hit in the face by a baseball bat with no explanation as to who or why I was being hit. But given the tone of the posts from a number of people in this thread I'm determined to give it a second chance because anything that garners this much disgust is always worthy of a second look.

I found your last statement both true and funny. Too bad I can't do the same. People seem more inclined towards provoking an argument via the thread rather than seeing if they could help. But lately, that seems to be par for the course here. Sadly.

Good luck with your game, though. Hope you enjoy it!

[burned]

What is it that you are seeking here?

It's easy for me to understand what he is seeking.

However, it's easy for me to understand the "yucky taste" k33n speaks of without him explaining why.

Not easy for me at all.

/snip

Something seems wrong about holding a fundraiser for yourself for a mod for a game where the creator of that game lives off donations. I guess it comes from an odd sort of love for DF; from passion and support for Toady and his life's work.

That's the best way I can describe the "yucky taste" - perhaps it isn't easy to understand, but I'd argue that the passion is clear.

Asking for feedback from people not interested in masterwork is sincerely not clear to me. If I put out a graphic set and asked for feedback from ASCII users that would be confusing, right? Am I going to convince them to convert? What would be the point?

Regardless, whether you guys are using masterwork or not or ASCII or graphic sets - Strike the Earth! ;]

[Devstorm]

What is it that you are seeking here?

It's easy for me to understand what he is seeking.

However, it's easy for me to understand the "yucky taste" k33n speaks of without him explaining why.

Not easy for me at all.

/snip

Something seems wrong about holding a fundraiser for yourself for a mod for a game where the creator of that game lives off donations. I guess it comes from an odd sort of love for DF; from passion and support for Toady and his life's work.

That's the best way I can describe the "yucky taste" - perhaps it isn't easy to understand, but I'd argue that the passion is clear.

Asking for feedback from people not interested in masterwork is sincerely not clear to me. If I put out a graphic set and asked for feedback from ASCII users that would be confusing, right? Am I going to convince them to convert? What would be the point?

Regardless, whether you guys are using masterwork or not or ASCII or graphic sets - Strike the Earth! ;]

Well, if I made a tile set, and wanted to find out what was thought of it, I would not only ask my users, but go to those still using ansi/other tile sets to find out if they've tried mine. And why, if they have, they aren't using it. It's a means to provide feedback that might lead to improvement. Or at least that is my best guess on what is being done with this thread.

[burned]

Well, if I made a tile set, and wanted to find out what was thought of it, I would not only ask my users, but go to those still using ansi/other tile sets to find out if they've tried mine. And why, if they have, they aren't using it. It's a means to provide feedback that might lead to improvement. Or at least that is my best guess on what is being done with this thread.

Perhaps it is very difficult for me to understand, since I am coming from a position of disinterest no matter how you spin "your graphic set." Masterwork just doesn't peak my interest.

Thats why I made this thread. I want to know what Non-MDF-players think. Anything goes, praise or criticise away. Rant about it if you like. Negative feedback is still feedback, as long as it doesnt border on insults. And ask what you like. Anything you might want to know about the project or me.

Emphasis mine.

I do understand what you are saying Devstorm - but the whole "Non-MDF-players" means people like me - who just don't play it; have no interest in playing it. So why care what I think about it?

[thvaz]

I feel the "yucky taste" exactly as burned feels it, too. And I don't like how when It is so intrusive in the Dwarf wiki.

But what I like doesn't matter. As long as Toady is ok with it, it's ok.

[macscarfe]

Asking for feedback from people not interested in masterwork is sincerely not clear to me. If I put out a graphic set and asked for feedback from ASCII users that would be confusing, right? Am I going to convince them to convert? What would be the point?

Well for me, as a person who has modded other games (not touching this game as I actually want a life and a steady income a job provides at the moment) I have seen so many mods die off simply because they did exactly what you said.

Preaching to the converted is an evolutionary dead-end, it leads to elitism and the vocal minority dominating the mod/game.

Surely it's better to cast your net a bit wider, to be more inclusive, to ask for criticism (and who better to ask criticisms from that those who actually criticize rather than massage your ego because your doing what they want?) and from that work towards making a mod that appeals to a wider audience? (if that is your goal)

Of course there's always the danger of going too far and trying to please all of the people all of the time, but I personally think Meph is taking the right approach by asking those who don't use his mod why in as broad, open and friendly way possible.

[arbarbonif]

do understand what you are saying Devstorm - but the whole "Non-MDF-players" means people like me - who just don't play it; have no interest in playing it. So why care what I think about it?

It includes people like you and people that don't play because of other reasons, that Meph may be able to alleviate by changing things (thus getting them more interested). 

There are 4 types of people; those that like you for the right reasons, like you for the wrong reasons, dislike you for the wrong reasons, and dislike you for the right reasons.  Only the last group really matters.  -Mangled quote by somebody whom I don't know the name of.

More on topic: I do play Masterwork, but only dwarves and I do think there is simply too much in it (which is the main reason I haven't tried the other races).  The main thing I like about it is how it gives ways to deal with the variances of the map.  You don't need flux on the map to get steel, you can get bloodsteel or obtain flux from other ores and iron from praying.  You can even make a decent military without any metal at all.  A good embark is still a good embark but there are far fewer boringly bad embarks (oh look, the shallow metals were zinc and galena, with tin deep!). Meanwhile, FUN embarks can get even more FUN.  But I don't actually feel like I have a complete handle on dwarves since I run into the "ooh, maybe this would work better; time to restart!" even more strongly than I do in standard DF.  I've never made a volcanic item, made one golem (and ended up using the wrong dwarf since I didn't realize that it ate him)...  I think MDF has a problem with option paralysis (at least for me).

I do think that having one mod dominate the landscape is not good for the community, but I'm not sure what can really be done about it.  I think the creating a launcher that lets you combine mods seamlessly and easily is the best bet for making it a more competitive marketplace.

[Arbinire]

I do think it keeps baring in mind that Meph isn't a native English speaker, so while he may say something which comes across one way, it isn't necessarily what his intent with the message was.

I do think that having one mod dominate the landscape is not good for the community, but I'm not sure what can really be done about it.  I think the creating a launcher that lets you combine mods seamlessly and easily is the best bet for making it a more competitive marketplace.

That also runs the risk of mods becoming homogenized, smaller fish being eaten up by the bigger.  One of the complaints this very thread has seen is the fact that more than a few mods and 3rd party programs have been adopted by Masterwork and specifically it's launcher, and people now attribute them to Meph and Masterwork.

[samanato]

Should there a mod-launcher, it at least needs to clear that it's just that, a launcher for mods.  It should be very clear about attribution, not just in credits, but explicitly naming the mod and its author in the interface itself.

The specific to Masterwork problem is being a modpack and an original creation at once, which doesn't help with the attribution of whose work is whose.

[Nopenope]

That also runs the risk of mods becoming homogenized, smaller fish being eaten up by the bigger.  One of the complaints this very thread has seen is the fact that more than a few mods and 3rd party programs have been adopted by Masterwork and specifically it's launcher, and people now attribute them to Meph and Masterwork.

Mods being homogenized is a good thing. There are people actively at work right now trying to come up with a standard way of making and combining mods; no one wants to sort through a bunch of raws because of one careless modder. As for people attributing stuff to Masterwork, I've seen it happen a grand total of two times - and there's been a lot of noise about either instance. We get it, MW is not DFHack; it's time to move on.

[Putnam]

That also runs the risk of mods becoming homogenized, smaller fish being eaten up by the bigger.  One of the complaints this very thread has seen is the fact that more than a few mods and 3rd party programs have been adopted by Masterwork and specifically it's launcher, and people now attribute them to Meph and Masterwork.

As for people attributing stuff to Masterwork, I've seen it happen a grand total of two times - and there's been a lot of noise about either instance. We get it, MW is not DFHack; it's time to move on.

You've never payed too much attention to Reddit.

Mods being homogenized is a good thing.

This is simply equivocation. Homogenized as you're describing it is in terms of syntax. Homogenized as corrosivechains is describing it is in terms of it all becoming one big mod called Masterwork.

[k33n]

That also runs the risk of mods becoming homogenized, smaller fish being eaten up by the bigger.  One of the complaints this very thread has seen is the fact that more than a few mods and 3rd party programs have been adopted by Masterwork and specifically it's launcher, and people now attribute them to Meph and Masterwork.

Mods being homogenized is a good thing. There are people actively at work right now trying to come up with a standard way of making and combining mods; no one wants to sort through a bunch of raws because of one careless modder. As for people attributing stuff to Masterwork, I've seen it happen a grand total of two times - and there's been a lot of noise about either instance. We get it, MW is not DFHack; it's time to move on.

Not when one guy takes the credit and money.

[Putnam]

We're still not talking about the same word here.