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[Ludorum Rex]

Eh, I was skeptical even at KS at the Early Access price hike so I stuck at the 10 bucks tier. I assure you I make far more than 10 per hour  

Its not about the money as far as I'm concerned. As far as I'm concerned this was very much a scam, Kickstarters are marketed as preorders, and saying that they are not and its just a donation is both sleazy  rule-wriggling... and likely illegal. In fact some of the articles Daimiac linked mention that KS is changing its TOS because of recent rulings addressing this kind of problem.
Also, early on someone was saying that people complaining about what happened make him angry. Well, what makes ME angry is people telling me it's unreasonable to complain about  blatant theft, that what those two guys from KDG did was normal, and that KSs are actually donations and  I shouldn't feel "entitled" to get anything out of them (no. just no. If I want to make "donations"  I donate to the NYSCF, or MSF, or "Save the Whales".  Not to random internet guys who may or may not provide a game in return. Kickstarters are clearly transactional, and the fact they are failing at that showcases why its a good idea to avoid that business model like the plague)

Well, to be fair there is a "Risks" section on Kickstarters (although in this case it was either overly optimistic and/or misleading). But the fact remains that Kickstarters are considered by many (and perhaps by some legal jurisdictions, that's not for me to say) to be pre-orders and/or pseudo-investments. Anyone who gets into crowdfunding needs to be acutely aware of this - backers will be split among different perceptions of what they can expect to receive and how much risk they accept. This is why I would in almost no circumstance use crowdfunding for one of my game or software development projects. I must admit the temptation was strong in regards to my current project, but I knowing I have significant risks when it comes to how and what I deliver, I thought it both risky to my mental well-being and unethical towards potential backers. I think Early Access is a much more ethical way to go about such things, even if the potential for funding is much lower. I also dislike how crowdfunding often fragments the player base into tiers with different levels of access to basic community features.

As for this project, it continues to confuse and bewilder, stirring back to life in a most surprising fashion. I hesitate to badmouth a fellow developer, because who knows what's been going on behind the scenes, but I can understand how some backers might feel misled by elements of the campaign. I backed this being skeptical that the entire vision would be realized, and I don't have any particular issues with not getting anything in return. My meager contribution is not worth any actual stress or shame for the developers. But that's my choice, and I respect that other backers may feel differently.

In my opinion - when doing crowdfunding don't trust anything, don't expect to get anything and don't believe any claims you cannot validate through actual interaction with objects or software. And as a small or rookie indie game developer, resist the temptation of crowdfunding. Although I think the time of readily available indie crowdfunding might have passed as skepticism and disappointment has taken hold. The failure of Shadows Behind the Throne to get funded could indicate so.

I hope Josh manages to put a game out there as some point, and get back to interacting with the community. There are some loyal and great people waiting for a game, and it would be good for him to get something released - even if it's not what the initial pitch promised. There will always be angry people on the internet, but niche gamers are much kinder than their reputation, and even if the truth is that there are 10 years of development left, and that the result will not be paradigm-shattering AI and storytelling, he'd still be better off being open about that. Isolation is rarely healthy or productive.

[SangerZonvolt]

I said it before and I say it again because people probably donīt know: You donīt need to argue about wether kickstarter is a preorder in the case of TWS if you want to determine if they are owning some people something: They sold the game as preorder through their website with paypal as payment method. So there are at least some people out there (me included) who absolutely DID preorder the game outside of kickstarter. So yes, legaly speaking i have a contract with them and AM entitled to a game or the money back. Not that I expect either of these to happen.

[Ludorum Rex]

Oh, I thought the actual pre-orders had been refunded. Yes, of course, you are legally entitled to those if you're in the EU or Australia. (possibly the US, too, I don't know about that).

[Damiac]

Thanks guys, some good points being made.  I think IronyOwl makes an excellent point about the slippery nature of this discussion, and really internet discussions in general.  It's so easy to think you're talking about one thing while someone else thinks you're talking about something else, and both end up confused and annoyed.

Anyway, I made whatever point it is I was trying to make I think, and I see no reason to go around this merry-go-round again. Sorry if I got overly heated, it was out of frustration due to an apparent failure to communicate and not intended to be personal. I'll get off this ride before I attract the wrath of the toad.

[ThtblovesDF]

I for one did (pre)order on there website and requested a refund on there website & forum, without success. Sadly the transaction was to long ago to make paypal refund it.

[forsaken1111]

Do they have a stated refund policy on the website? If they do, and they haven't honored it, you'd certainly have grounds for some serious complaints and possible legal action.

[Ludorum Rex]

EU and Australian consumer law doesn't really care about refund policies (unless they are above and beyond the required minimum). Not only do they require that pre-orders can be cancelled at any time until release, they enforce a 14 day return period after the game has been delivered (although with some requirements as to how and why). The Australian authorities going after Valve is why Steam now has a world-wide refund policy usable even after a game has been played (up to X hours). It's a bit fuzzy how this applies to Kickstarters, but for regular pre-orders you are required to honor EU and Australian consumer law when dealing with customers in those countries, even if you are based in another country. This, among other reasons (tax issues chief among them), is why indies should avoid handling sales/pre-orders themselves and go through Steam or other platforms.

[Damiac]

I'm pretty sure that's the case in the US as well, although it probably varies a bit state to state. It doesn't matter what your refund policy is, if you accept money you have to give the product, if no product give the money back.  It's kinda like how EULAs are meaningless and unenforceable. Even if you get someone to sign something saying "You may murder me" It's still against the law to murder them.  If they agree to something that says "Even if we don't deliver you don't get your money back" it doesn't matter, because that's not how it works.

This is all to do with pre-orders, there's really no fuzziness there as far as I know.  With kickstarter things get a bit fuzzier, although it looks like the courts are sort of looking at them as the same thing as pre-orders at this point.

[lordcooper]

$85,593 three and a half years ago, with indisputable evidence of at least some being used for contract artwork.

You can't get blood from a stone.

[ChairmanPoo]

It doesnt really matter. They made spurious claims.

[forsaken1111]

It doesnt really matter. They made spurious claims.

You have to prove that part though. That is the problem with everyone shouting fraud.

[SangerZonvolt]

It doesnt really matter. They made spurious claims.

You have to prove that part though. That is the problem with everyone shouting fraud.

The claim was they have a game almost ready which just need polish (which can be proven quite easily because itīs still in their Kickstarter campaign and they havenīt bothered to update that or their homepage.

The fact is that no game was delivered till now and that we have word from one part of the company (Fenicks) that at least one gameplay video was completely faked. The fact that preorders were made are easy too proof through paypal and my receipt I still have saved in my mails. So yeah, I donīt see a problem in proofing this at all.

[ZeroGravitas]

It doesnt really matter. They made spurious claims.

You have to prove that part though. That is the problem with everyone shouting fraud.

read any of josh's stories recounting a playable and advanced game

do you think they are real and true accounts of a game he made and is playing?

[AlStar]

do you think they are real and true accounts of a game he made and is playing?

While I'm certainly not going to go as far to say "absolutely," since that would be silly without actually standing behind him while he played a game; given what we've seen out of the dev, I wouldn't say it's entirely unbelievable that he did actually have a prototype game that he played, which produced those stories, but which might have been terribly unstable, or which had other 'major' flaws (at least in the dev's eyes), which precluded him from distributing it to backers.

[ChairmanPoo]

The burden of proof is on him, then. It's as simple as producing the prototype.