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[Egan_BW]

I believe in the existence of perfectionists, yes.

[Lapoleon]

I just spend another couple of pages of is it a scam or not. Nobody really cares anymore about of it was originally a lie or not, we've had this discussion a thousand times. We are living in the present and only interested in the future.

Damiac, we have heard everything you've had to say again and again. If you want to talk about Kickstarter that's fine, but do it another thread, you have no stake in the game so it's weird seeing you make such a big deal out of it.

As Sean says, we either get something or not. The only thing to do now is just wait and see.

[Xgamer4]

Josh. The dev's name is Josh. The original business partner that's now disavowed himself form the project was Joe.

But I'll admit, you railing so hard against a project you're not monetarily invested in, without even knowing the names of the two people involved, is amusing.

[nenjin]

As Sean says, we either get something or not. The only thing to do now is just wait and see.

Or actually file complaints against them instead of just railing here about it. That, along with new videos, would be a thread update worth reading.

[Damiac]

Fair enough, I kept saying Chris for some crazy reason, don't know where I got that. Sorry.

While my railing against a project I'm not involved in may seem amusing to you, imagine how the railing against people annoyed that this guy stole their money must perplex a lot of people.  But I can see there's no point in talking about it here, because there's 2-3 determined people who will just flood out any logic and facts on the topic.  Apparently out of a selfish desire to maybe someday have some level of access to assets that may or may not exist.

Fine. I give up. But don't give up on yourselves! While insanity has won the day here, maybe one day reason and logic will triumph. Just, apparently, not today. Not here.  Instead keep blaming the backers for just giving the guy too much money and making him promise things he couldn't deliver.  It's those goddamn entitled consumers again... wanting what they paid for...

e. Hahaha, I was just reading the kickstarter page. Last update: From November 20th, 2017

Going forward I will be posting a video every week until release, please keep your eyes on the YouTube channel for updates as I move forward.  I understand the healthy skepticism you may feel towards that statement and respect it.

Weird. I mean, I guess we can't prove he didn't post 17 videos and forget to link any of them anywhere or tell anyone about it...

Here's the excerpt from the original kickstarter.  This is a quote directly from Chris:

That Which Sleeps has been in development for over a year and has been entirely self funded up to this point.  We have a stable working game engine and what we feel is a fun and engaging concept, we just lack the art resources to bring the visuals to the next level.

We have a full time coder and all the major game systems and are in place and successfully implemented.  We do not, however, have an in house artist - so we'd be using your funds primarily to cover graphic updates, and animation.  We think with responsible use of your funds we can overhaul several of the major art assets - including portraits, heros, and agent sprites & animation.

The original text can be found here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdinosaurgames/that-which-sleeps/description

Do you honestly believe this is true? All the major game systems were in place at the start of this project? They had a stable working game engine? They primarily needed funds for graphic updates and animation? 

It isn't true that the only thing you can do is to wait and see. People saying that are either misinformed or lying to you. Contact the FTC, file a complaint, contact your AG, these are all free.  If you don't want to, don't.  If you don't want other people to do that, admit that's what you're doing and stop obfuscating. 

And remember: The version of reality that the defenders of this project in this thread apparently believe is that Josh had, and therefore has the working game prototype he described, so in fact he has the MVP he could ship out to you. Right now, you could be playing That Which Sleeps.  Josh is just such a perfectionist he won't give it to you.  Josh is such a perfectionist that he's not doing the thing that instantly gets legal responsibility off his back, even though he says it's affecting him personally in a bad way. 

What I'm railing against is that insane delusion, that you keep pushing onto people with legitimate complaints.  Stop playing white knight for Josh, and maybe people will stop posting facts that contradict the bizarre defenses you keep putting out for him.   You've seen this argument play out a million times because there's one objective reality and you keep going "Nuh-uh".  There isn't an argument with two sides happening here, there is one argument, and then there's some people running through humming circus music so loud you can't hear the argument.

[ChairmanPoo]

I *am* a project backer and agree with Damiac on general terms. This kind of BS is the reasom why I avoid KS like the plague ever since, I have been highly skeptical for a while now about there being any real game behind this, and it will take something more substantial than those videos to change my mind. And I do think that the twits behind this "project" should get prosecuted by the relevant trade authorities.  I half suspect that video releases are an attempt to get the FTC off his back

[Damiac]

I'm pretty sure the frequency at which new videos come out is similar to the frequency at which he receives complaints from the FTC. 
Feds: "Hey! You abandoned this! You gotta pay that money back"
Josh: "What?!? No I didn't. In fact, I was just about to release a video proving I've been working on this!" *Releases video showing no gameplay*
Feds: "Oh... ok, I guess you're still working on it then"

Repeat forever.

By the way, how much money would you need to put out a half baked youtube video once every 3 months?  If you give me 1 million dollars today, I'll make you the best game ever. Every feature ever will be in it. It will never ever release, but I will produce a video every 3 months showing something vaguely game shaped.  After all, I'm going to keep working on it, it can't be a scam!

[bloop_bleep]

PTW

[forsaken1111]

Oh hey we're back to this again. Good to see we're full circle. Apparently not having proof of fraud means that fraud definitely happened?

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Listen. There's no game yet, maybe ever. There's no way to get your money back. Why do we have to have all this much-ado-about-nothing? There's really nothing to discuss again, nor has there been frankly. Let's just let it go.

[Damiac]

Doo doo doodle doodle doot doot doo doo, doot doot doodle doodle doo doo doo.

It's hard to write circus music, but that's my attempt. 

Contact the FTC, there is a way to get your money back, or at least try.  Nobody has the right to steal your money.

OK guys, quick, spam this off the page as fast as you can.

[forsaken1111]

Listen. There's no game yet, maybe ever. There's no way to get your money back. Why do we have to have all this much-ado-about-nothing? There's really nothing to discuss again, nor has there been frankly. Let's just let it go.

I agree with you, but people have every right to be angry about losing money. It's my opinion that if you're holding a grudge 3 years later about a lost sum of money then it wasn't money you should have spent, but I recognize that some people can be angry about anything and everything, even things which seem inconsequential to me.

At this point we're just rehashing old arguments and people are venting angrily. No new information has come up other than the two videos, there is still no proof either way on this matter. It's evident that Josh is still working on something, even if he's doing something as idiotic as Damiac suggested, making a few videos to keep people at bay. I doubt that, seems like more work than actually making a game, but whatever. Could be? I have no evidence to the contrary

Contact the FTC, there is a way to get your money back, or at least try.  Nobody has the right to steal your money.

There you go again. Nobody stole your money, or anyone's money, regarding this kickstarter.

[bloop_bleep]

Full disclaimer: I knew nothing about this game before I found this thread; I didn't donate any money or anything, so perhaps I don't have the greatest authority to speak about this, but I just want to input my two cents.

I agree with the majority of Damiac's arguments, but I want to just explicitly point out, whether you decide to try to get your money back or not is completely your personal choice which no-one else has any sway on. Trying to get people to decide one way or another is something both sides of this argument are guilty of.

Also, there might be some additional circumstances that are unknown to us that may explain why the developer didn't release the prototype of the game, since I agree with Damiac that not doing so while being under such intense pressure seems very strange, if he indeed does have the prototype. But what if he had it before, but doesn't any longer? What if he could get into trouble if he released the prototype? Somehow I feel this is somewhat related to his business partner leaving. Perhaps they were brought some code or other assets into the game, which they licensed to the developer, but when they left they terminated the license. That would mean that either the developer has to release the game with the no-longer-licensed assets and face legal retribution, or has to somehow replace those assets in order for the game to work. Maybe that's what he was doing this entire time.

This is obviously just one possibility of many that would explain the absence of the game. Or, of course, it could be a fraud after all.

[IronyOwl]

I think the arguments in this thread suffer from three main problems:

1. We're discussing highly subjective and/or technical concepts regarding largely unknown factors: The moral imperatives of the creator assuming the following chain of events, how a lawyer followed by a jury would perceive a civil action based on the following evidence, and so on.

2. Largely because of #1, people tend to switch seamlessly between what's morally acceptable, what's legally infeasible to prosecute, what they personally want to happen, etc etc without specifying which category they or anyone else is operating in, resulting in a lot of talking past each other and repeating the same arguments over and over and over because for some strange reason the other guy doesn't get it and just keeps repeating his argument over and over and over.

3. Largely because of #2, but also heavily due to #1, the fact that we keep doing this, and the base drama of the situation, everyone tends to get really angry and/or dismissive. Not surprisingly, this tends to magnify #2 into screaming at each other about fraud and entitlement, and hastening everyone's general conclusion that this is not a productive conversation.


So... if you want to continue discussing this, I'd advise defining your terms more clearly. We seem to keep stumbling into infinite loops when you don't.

[ChairmanPoo]

Eh, I was skeptical even at KS at the Early Access price hike so I stuck at the 10 bucks tier. I assure you I make far more than 10 per hour  

Its not about the money as far as I'm concerned. As far as I'm concerned this was very much a scam, Kickstarters are marketed as preorders, and saying that they are not and its just a donation is both sleazy  rule-wriggling... and likely illegal. In fact some of the articles Daimiac linked mention that KS is changing its TOS because of recent rulings addressing this kind of problem.
Also, early on someone was saying that people complaining about what happened make him angry. Well, what makes ME angry is people telling me it's unreasonable to complain about  blatant theft, that what those two guys from KDG did was normal, and that KSs are actually donations and  I shouldn't feel "entitled" to get anything out of them (no. just no. If I want to make "donations"  I donate to the NYSCF, or MSF, or "Save the Whales".  Not to random internet guys who may or may not provide a game in return. Kickstarters are clearly transactional, and the fact they are failing at that showcases why its a good idea to avoid that business model like the plague)