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[Damiac]

You guys think I'm mad about losing money to this game? I never pledged to this game, or any other, because "If you pledge you're owed nothing and bla bla bla".  I'm a little mad about this guy taking people's money through fraud, but I'm much more mad about the fact that there are still people defending this instance of blatant fraud, and furthermore, blaming the victims of the fraud for being annoyed about it!

Let kickstarter tell people that "technically they aren't owed a refund".  Meanwhile spread the word about this fraud, so his other fraudulent ventures don't get any steam.  Go over the failings of this project, show where the fraud started becoming obvious and how we can more quickly detect this kind of bullshit in the future.

I know it's fun to put people in their place for being all 'entitled' and thinking they should 'get what they paid for', but maybe consider that you are also a consumer and I'm assuming you don't want to be ripped off yourself. 


Here's an example of how stuff works in my line of work, I think it's got some similarities:

Someone says "I want a machine that does X, Y, and Z.  How much would you guys charge me to make such a machine?"

One of our sales engineers then uses their experience, knowledge, etc to come up with a solution, and a price quote.  Obviously we can't engineer the entire machine before we've collected any payment, so there's some guessing here.

The potential customer is provided with a price.  Thus a contract is offered: "I will pay you some amount of money to deliver a machine that does X, Y, and Z"

Usually, the machine falls within the budget and my company pockets a profit, the customer gets their machine, everyone's happy.

HOWEVER! Sometimes mistakes are made.  After spending all that money, sometimes we end up with a machine that does not in fact perform X, Y, and Z.  Oh no! Now what? The money is gone, but we can't deliver the promised machine? What do we do?

Now, I know what you're thinking, just stop answering the phone and they'll go away eventually right?  After all,

it ain't really worth responding to refund requests.

But in fact, that's not what we do! In such situations typically we'll attempt to negotiate a modified price for the machine.  Sometimes it's close enough and a small price reduction makes everyone happy.  Sometimes, however, the machine is just unsuitable.
So what do we do? Well, maybe we try again, and eat the cost ourselves. We don't make money on the job, but the customer is still happy.
Maybe we give the money back? Even though we've actually spent the money the customer gave us to build the crappy machine, we essentially borrow from ourselves to pay back the customer.

Well actually, I should back up. The very first thing we do when we realize we in fact cannot accomplish what we said we would is to...
COMMUNICATE TO THE CUSTOMER.  You know, rather than just going quiet for a year.

Although... maybe Bernie Madoff just didn't realize his ponzi scheme wasn't going to work out.  And anyway, the people weren't giving him money in exchange for a product, they knew it was an INVESTMENT with RISK, they were entitled to nothing!  I still feel bad for ol' Bernie, they should have been fine with their money being gone, and been happy knowing maybe, someday, they'd get something out of it. Just because he lied about the premise to get their money doesn't mean he shouldn't get to keep it anyway!

[forsaken1111]

Maybe you should take this to a general kickstarter thread if you're not talking specifically about this game then? This isn't really on topic any more, you're just talking about crowdfunding in general.

[Damiac]

Well, since all there is here is a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and no game, it seems like the perfect topic for how this was a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and there is no game.

Since you keep yelling at people that complain about losing their pre-order or pledge money to this fraud, I think perhaps it's you who is off topic.  The continued discussion and quoting of proof of the fraud are also quite on-point. 

Quite frankly, if a couple of posters would stop shilling for this fraudster this topic would have vanished anyway.

[Retropunch]

The court route will never, ever work.

Lets ignore the fact that it'd cost you far more than your (relatively minor) damages to initiate proceedings. All he would have to do is release something - literally ANYTHING - and his promise is fulfilled and you've spent your court money on nothing.

Whilst release dates and whatever may have been promised (although I don't know what has been actually promised), a court isn't going to find in favour due to project delays/changes as it's very clear on kickstarter these are part and parcel of the service, and quality isn't really something you can rule on when you're backing something that doesn't actually exist.

The only way you could possibly win is if the devs couldn't produce any evidence - at all -  of an existing game, which I'm sure they could do if a court asked them. If they can do that then it's not fraud, it's just bad project management which unfortunately isn't a crime.

You might feel he's acted fraudulently, but thinking it and it being proven in court are wildly different. There is no hope at all of this succeeding, so put it out of your minds and don't waste your money.

[Damiac]

Not really, if he can show the working demo he promoted to get the money, no fraud, if he can't, fraud.  It's dead simple.
Also, class action law suits are a thing.

Not that I'm saying the court route is the best way to proceed here, as people point out, you can't get blood from a stone, but yeah, there's a mechanism in place already for people stealing small amounts not worth suing over from lots and lots of people.  It's not exactly new.

Now if the kickstarter policy is that creators are allowed to make fraudulent claims, then I guess they're probably the legally actionable ones, but I somehow doubt that's their policy.

[ZeroGravitas]

The court route will never, ever work.

Lets ignore the fact that it'd cost you far more than your (relatively minor) damages to initiate proceedings. All he would have to do is release something - literally ANYTHING - and his promise is fulfilled and you've spent your court money on nothing.

Whilst release dates and whatever may have been promised (although I don't know what has been actually promised), a court isn't going to find in favour due to project delays/changes as it's very clear on kickstarter these are part and parcel of the service, and quality isn't really something you can rule on when you're backing something that doesn't actually exist.

The only way you could possibly win is if the devs couldn't produce any evidence - at all -  of an existing game, which I'm sure they could do if a court asked them. If they can do that then it's not fraud, it's just bad project management which unfortunately isn't a crime.

You might feel he's acted fraudulently, but thinking it and it being proven in court are wildly different. There is no hope at all of this succeeding, so put it out of your minds and don't waste your money.

yeah, you have no clue what you're talking about. i'm not sure if that's because you don't understand how the american legal system works, or what.

1. in the us, an attorney would take a case like this on contingency, expecting to get 30-40% of whatever is recovered (which, in plenty of consumer fraud cases, means that fee going to be added to the award). the plaintiff/class members/backers would pay nothing in any circumstance.

2. again, it doesn't matter really matter what they release now. the question is whether there was anything to release in SEPTEMBER 2014. sure, they could end it all by releasing a full game. but if it were significantly short of what was already represented to exist, it's not going to help them at all.

3. i'm a US lawyer, i'm pretty sure you're not, so pick which one of us is better placed to make judgments about whether a case would succeed in court or not.

[forsaken1111]

Well, since all there is here is a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and no game, it seems like the perfect topic for how this was a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and there is no game.

Since you keep yelling at people that complain about losing their pre-order or pledge money to this fraud, I think perhaps it's you who is off topic.  The continued discussion and quoting of proof of the fraud are also quite on-point. 

Quite frankly, if a couple of posters would stop shilling for this fraudster this topic would have vanished anyway.

I'm not yelling at anyone? Nor am I defending anyone. I just poked a hole in your ridiculous analogy. You'd have every right to be angry about 'losing your preorder' if you had. But what you're doing is just dropping in and shouting about fraud and how terrible crowd funding is in general because these people keep 'getting away with it' and then accusing anyone who disagrees with you of 'shilling' for him. What does that mean? I'm certainly not supporting the dev. I didn't back this kickstarter, I'm not saying anyone should give him anything else. Hell I said to go ahead with a lawsuit if you feel its worthwhile. At what point am I shilling for him?

I agree it would be in his best interest to at least show off some proof of his initial claims, but failing to do so does not make him guilty.

[Shooer]

Who says you need to spend any of your own money?  If you live in a state or country that has half decent consumer protection law you can contact the proper authorities and they will perform an investigation.  There have been several kickstarters taken to court and ordered to pay fines and restitution for failing to meet goals.

By never going silent the guy is kind of protecting him self from it though.  Seeing as most of the cases I found the fraudster canceled the project publicly or just went silent.

[AlStar]

Quite frankly, if a couple of posters would stop shilling for this fraudster this topic would have vanished anyway.

The reason it got bumped up again recently is because the guy posted some new videos showing off the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP6RailZ2cY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8DRtMjob0U

As has been noted before, he hasn't been taking new orders for years now.

[ThtblovesDF]

Or even responded to message on his forum or website or his partner.

I tend to assume someone not understanding the buyers regret some of us have is trolling tbh.

[Damiac]

Well, since all there is here is a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and no game, it seems like the perfect topic for how this was a fraudulent kickstarter pitch and there is no game.

Since you keep yelling at people that complain about losing their pre-order or pledge money to this fraud, I think perhaps it's you who is off topic.  The continued discussion and quoting of proof of the fraud are also quite on-point. 

Quite frankly, if a couple of posters would stop shilling for this fraudster this topic would have vanished anyway.

I'm not yelling at anyone? Nor am I defending anyone. I just poked a hole in your ridiculous analogy. You'd have every right to be angry about 'losing your preorder' if you had. But what you're doing is just dropping in and shouting about fraud and how terrible crowd funding is in general because these people keep 'getting away with it' and then accusing anyone who disagrees with you of 'shilling' for him. What does that mean? I'm certainly not supporting the dev. I didn't back this kickstarter, I'm not saying anyone should give him anything else. Hell I said to go ahead with a lawsuit if you feel its worthwhile. At what point am I shilling for him?

I agree it would be in his best interest to at least show off some proof of his initial claims, but failing to do so does not make him guilty.

So, even though you keep going after people who post negatively about this project, and calling it a scam, you're not defending it.  You also aren't involved in any way in it? You're actually just commenting on other people's comments, and you've admitted you have no interest in the topic to begin with, so why do you keep trying to chase me out of the thread?  Bit of a pot/kettle situation, if you ask me.  You are also the first and only person I accused of shilling at any point ever in this thread, so your characterization of my behavior seems a bit inaccurate.

You can see there actually is some interest in people attempting to recover some of their defrauded money.  That's the most consistent theme in this thread lately, that and people like you white knighting for the dev's fraudulent behavior.  I realize he's not taking any more money, that's smart of him to not continue the ongoing fraud, but Stop trying to normalize fraud.  If it's not OK for a big big company to do to you, it's not OK for a little tiny company (even one person) to do to you.  And if you don't mind being cheated, that's fine, but don't get in the way of people who do mind.   

[Egan_BW]

The only way this being intentional fraud makes sense is if the guy is actually insane, or stupid enough that it makes no difference. This is not a good or smart way to make money.
Making those videos he put out without there being an actual game is possible, yeah, but if he's going to program a thing just for the sake of faking it, he may as well go make a simple shitty game and claim that's how it was at the start of the kickstarter. Bam drama done. Instead he's spending time working on stuff to show off, which indicates that there's at least intent to make something polished.

[Damiac]

The only way this is intentional fraud is if the guy made fraudulent claims while pitching it. Which he did!
Whether or not that is a smart way to make lots of money is irrelevant.  He probably believed he could actually accomplish the things he fraudulently claimed to have already done.  Still fraud though.  Of course, if the claims weren't fraudulent, he could have released that already existing game, and there'd be no conversation happening now.  But they were, so he didn't, so there is.

If he shits out a rainbow with 2 million US dollars at the end of it for every single backer tomorrow it was still fraud.  Although I think they'd probably forgive him for it if he did that.

[forsaken1111]

The only way this is intentional fraud is if the guy made fraudulent claims while pitching it. Which he did!

If you actually have proof that he committed fraud then go ahead and release it. I am almost certain that what you think is proof wouldn't actually hold up in a court, but you keep claiming that he did it so you must have proof right?

You've accused him of fraud, and now me of 'shilling' for him because I said he isn't obligated to refund someone's money. You've not provided any evidence of either. So far all you've done is slander and sensationalize.

[nenjin]

I like how those of us just watching to see how this plays out are now "shills."

The only reason this topic has so much traffic is the "shrills" who think their outrage is actually productive in any way, shape or form. Who, every time an update comes up, have to come back here and shake their finger at people, repeating the same things they said 6 months ago.

Take it up with the BBB rather than bitching at people here for just...fucking...waiting.