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[Egan_BW]

The dev was in this thread before and during the kickstarter, and talked a lot about the game and what he was doing. If this is a scam, it's one where somebody did a whole lot of work keeping their story straight for the privilege of making a little money and then having to put out new fake updates with a lot of effort behind them, every few months, forever.

[Damiac]

With the rise in crowdfunding, I think we need another word.  Something like scam, but one that didn't start as one? Maybe where even the scammer is scamming himself?  Because I think that's what happened here, and with a lot of other crowdfunded efforts.

The inventor (whether it be a game, product, whatever) has this idea and maybe some proof of concept(at least, what he thinks is a proof of concept).  He is pretty sure there's something to this, so decides to go out and get some funding.

He pitches it, of course hyping as much as possible, because you are trying to draw people in.  He believes this can be done, so he's not scamming anyone.

It catches interest, and people start asking questions.  Can I do this in the game? What about that? And the dev, still wanting to draw people in, starts to have a reason to be a bit... overly optimistic.  While he wasn't planning to do that stuff, it's probably not too hard, and it does sound cool.  So he says "Yeah, that'll be in it", or makes stretch goals, whatever.  Still not a scam, but it's started to get away from the guy.

Down the line, the initial idea doesn't seem to be working, but he's still sure he can turn it around.  At the same time, he has to appear to be making progress, and keep people interested, and donating.  He's working long hours, getting burned out, but keeps a positive demeanor, and tries to make the updates sound as good as possible.  Not lying, but not telling everything. Not a scam, but starting to lose honesty.

Further in time, while the core game loop doesn't quite work, the graphics look nice, he's got all his text in place (He has to keep posting pretty pictures and updates after all to keep the people interested).  Maybe he works the screenshots a bit to make it look like the gameplay exists.  He's not working crazy overtime anymore, the burnout is getting worse, and he's distracting himself from the real problem by working on other, easier (and more fun) stuff. That generates more pretty pictures to show prospective funders, so he keeps going.  At this point, he's deluded and has begun to scam himself.

Then the cycle continues.  Dev is getting more and more frustrated, as are backers.  Telling little white lies to get the pressure off starts getting tempting.  Maybe he's not sure he can do this anymore, but he's already spent the money!  This is where it swings over to full scam, because while the dev never intended to make a scam, he's now collecting money for something he doesn't know if he can do.  Meanwhile his backers have probably split into factions, and there are always defenders.  Now his defenders are repeating not entirely true things the dev said, or are just making stuff up themselves, and he isn't going to go and correct them.   The dev doesn't need to lie, he just lets the defenders come in and defend him with whatever version of facts they believe.  Meanwhile money is still coming in.

This is what I think happens with a lot of crowdfunding "scams".  It doesn't look like a scam because it wasn't intended to be one, it just ended up that way.  Even though the dev wasn't going out and lying, he wasn't trying too hard to dispel the untrue things that were favorable to him. 

So the dev isn't in a great position themselves, why would anyone plan a scam like this? They wouldn't, they find themselves in it too deep to see a way out, and the only way to keep the pressure off is to keep it going.  But when that happens it still needs to be called out.

[Serenseven]

For the record: That Which Sleeps stopped taking in money from new backers well over a year ago.

EDIT: Actually, over two years ago now.

[ZeroGravitas]

... I realize you're caricaturizing That Which Sleeps, so this is kinda moot, but you're overdoing it a bit.

The claim hadn't really been that the game was 100% complete. It was that a stable demo for playtesting existed (and even that got walked back when the Kickstarter went live). The actual Kickstarter just says they have a "stable working game engine".

Nope. It says, "We have a working game that we will complete and deliver in a timely fashion." so there can't be any excuse at this point.

The dev was in this thread before and during the kickstarter, and talked a lot about the game and what he was doing. If this is a scam, it's one where somebody did a whole lot of work keeping their story straight for the privilege of making a little money and then having to put out new fake updates with a lot of effort behind them, every few months, forever.

Not really "a lot of work" - and the story was never really "straight." If you reread everything he ever wrote you can easily see that's he just bullshitting about some cool game he imagines - not something that existed at the time.

[ZeroGravitas]

With the rise in crowdfunding, I think we need another word.  Something like scam, but one that didn't start as one? Maybe where even the scammer is scamming himself?  Because I think that's what happened here, and with a lot of other crowdfunded efforts.

The inventor (whether it be a game, product, whatever) has this idea and maybe some proof of concept(at least, what he thinks is a proof of concept).  He is pretty sure there's something to this, so decides to go out and get some funding.

He pitches it, of course hyping as much as possible, because you are trying to draw people in.  He believes this can be done, so he's not scamming anyone.

It catches interest, and people start asking questions.  Can I do this in the game? What about that? And the dev, still wanting to draw people in, starts to have a reason to be a bit... overly optimistic.  While he wasn't planning to do that stuff, it's probably not too hard, and it does sound cool.  So he says "Yeah, that'll be in it", or makes stretch goals, whatever.  Still not a scam, but it's started to get away from the guy.

Down the line, the initial idea doesn't seem to be working, but he's still sure he can turn it around.  At the same time, he has to appear to be making progress, and keep people interested, and donating.  He's working long hours, getting burned out, but keeps a positive demeanor, and tries to make the updates sound as good as possible.  Not lying, but not telling everything. Not a scam, but starting to lose honesty.

Further in time, while the core game loop doesn't quite work, the graphics look nice, he's got all his text in place (He has to keep posting pretty pictures and updates after all to keep the people interested).  Maybe he works the screenshots a bit to make it look like the gameplay exists.  He's not working crazy overtime anymore, the burnout is getting worse, and he's distracting himself from the real problem by working on other, easier (and more fun) stuff. That generates more pretty pictures to show prospective funders, so he keeps going.  At this point, he's deluded and has begun to scam himself.

Then the cycle continues.  Dev is getting more and more frustrated, as are backers.  Telling little white lies to get the pressure off starts getting tempting.  Maybe he's not sure he can do this anymore, but he's already spent the money!  This is where it swings over to full scam, because while the dev never intended to make a scam, he's now collecting money for something he doesn't know if he can do.  Meanwhile his backers have probably split into factions, and there are always defenders.  Now his defenders are repeating not entirely true things the dev said, or are just making stuff up themselves, and he isn't going to go and correct them.   The dev doesn't need to lie, he just lets the defenders come in and defend him with whatever version of facts they believe.  Meanwhile money is still coming in.

This is what I think happens with a lot of crowdfunding "scams".  It doesn't look like a scam because it wasn't intended to be one, it just ended up that way.  Even though the dev wasn't going out and lying, he wasn't trying too hard to dispel the untrue things that were favorable to him. 

So the dev isn't in a great position themselves, why would anyone plan a scam like this? They wouldn't, they find themselves in it too deep to see a way out, and the only way to keep the pressure off is to keep it going.  But when that happens it still needs to be called out.

the word is "vaporware"

[Farce]

I still blame stretch goals. When that first pitch came around the map was static - we bitched and whined for randomly-generated ones, he said it was a bad idea, we threw enough money at it to hit the randomly-generated-map stretch goal and he relented to the pressure, and then this happened.

I don't think they're malicious or anything, just that they didn't realize how shitty that one change was going to make things.  That plus the nature of indie development and projects in general PLUS the pressure from the community being mad about it not going according to schedule - which is rare enough even for projects that go well - and I think it's understandable for the delay.

I also think it's kind of shitty to defame the developer over an investment like, what, 15-30 bucks to back him?  It's not exactly a massive chunk of cash, and Kickstarter projects are always things that are in development, not a discount pre-order store.

And like, if I seem mad about this, I am.  I can understand being disappointed, but what the fuck is the point of shitting on the guy?  I actively hate people dumping on him because it makes That Which Sleeps even less likely to ever happen.  Could he have conducted his PR better?  Probably.  Could the community have conducted themselves better?  I think so.  You're not sticking it to some Big Evil Corporation, he's just some rando that couldn't deliver.  If you're right, then you gain nothing except the smugness of posthumously identifying a scam that won't ever actually be confirmed by anyone, and if you're wrong, then all you're doing is making this guy's life shittier and development harder.

Ugh.  Whenever the subject of this game's development comes up I feel like I'm yelling into the wind.

[nenjin]

Ugh.  Whenever the subject of this game's development comes up I feel like I'm yelling into the wind.

That's because we keep having the same conversation anytime the thread is bumped.

[Sartain]

I think for me, the thing that makes this seem like a scam more than anything else is the fact that I have had zero replies to my 4 requests for a refund. I'd think that if you were legit you'd at least take the time to send a reply.

[Zangi]

Such an elaborate scam, it keeps resurfacing for some durn reason.  When it could have stayed dead and forgotten.

Really though, I just chalk it up to the money being spent years ago and it ain't really worth responding to refund requests.  (not professionals)

[forsaken1111]

Also they don't owe you a refund, technically. Refunds are optional, unless the project is abandoned. At least as far as I understand Kickstarter policy.

[Sartain]

Also they don't owe you a refund, technically. Refunds are optional, unless the project is abandoned. At least as far as I understand Kickstarter policy.

I know that. Any sort of reply would have been nice though, and make it seem a little less like a blatant scam

[AlStar]

Also they don't owe you a refund, technically. Refunds are optional, unless the project is abandoned. At least as far as I understand Kickstarter policy.

I know that. Any sort of reply would have been nice though, and make it seem a little less like a blatant scam

I would've thought the fact that he hasn't disappeared to some island paradise and continues to (occasionally) post new stuff would make you think it wasn't a blatant scam.

[dennislp3]

Also they don't owe you a refund, technically. Refunds are optional, unless the project is abandoned. At least as far as I understand Kickstarter policy.

I know that. Any sort of reply would have been nice though, and make it seem a little less like a blatant scam

I would've thought the fact that he hasn't disappeared to some island paradise and continues to (occasionally) post new stuff would make you think it wasn't a blatant scam.

This...I think the truth is more along the lines of someone jumping ahead of themselves and then running into a critical issue that required a complete rebuild of the game. At least the last proper communication seemed to be about how there was a critical issue with how the AI worked...money spent long ago and forgotten...I don't mind at this point but I do look forward to maybe getting a game some day.

[Damiac]

I still blame stretch goals. When that first pitch came around the map was static - we bitched and whined for randomly-generated ones, he said it was a bad idea, we threw enough money at it to hit the randomly-generated-map stretch goal and he relented to the pressure, and then this happened.

I don't think they're malicious or anything, just that they didn't realize how shitty that one change was going to make things.  That plus the nature of indie development and projects in general PLUS the pressure from the community being mad about it not going according to schedule - which is rare enough even for projects that go well - and I think it's understandable for the delay.

I also think it's kind of shitty to defame the developer over an investment like, what, 15-30 bucks to back him?  It's not exactly a massive chunk of cash, and Kickstarter projects are always things that are in development, not a discount pre-order store.

And like, if I seem mad about this, I am.  I can understand being disappointed, but what the fuck is the point of shitting on the guy?  I actively hate people dumping on him because it makes That Which Sleeps even less likely to ever happen.  Could he have conducted his PR better?  Probably.  Could the community have conducted themselves better?  I think so.  You're not sticking it to some Big Evil Corporation, he's just some rando that couldn't deliver.  If you're right, then you gain nothing except the smugness of posthumously identifying a scam that won't ever actually be confirmed by anyone, and if you're wrong, then all you're doing is making this guy's life shittier and development harder.

Ugh.  Whenever the subject of this game's development comes up I feel like I'm yelling into the wind.

The reason I, and I assume others, keep railing about this isn't because of this one guy.  This is a pattern, and there's a lot of bizarre anti-consumer sentiment that keeps going with it because it's 'indies' and not 'a big evil company'.  Indies are exactly the type you need the most protection from. Are you more worried about a national company taking your money and running, or a random contractor?

If people want to get into the business of taking people's money in exchange for future promises, then yeah, they need to be held accountable. People need to look back at this and say "Oh wow, how do we avoid this happening again" not "Oh no, how do we stop people from complaining about this happening again?".

This isn't hard. It's civilization 101, you say "Do this and I'll do that", then they do this, and you are responsible to do that.  And if you say you will do something based on a condition, it's a contract.  Even with nothing written down and nothing signed it's a contract, the paperwork just makes it formal.  So this "technically according to kickstarter policy..." is nothing.  That might decide who wins a court case, but it doesn't change the simple promise made up front.

Whether you didn't do the thing you said you'd do because you never were going to, or because you didn't actually know how to do that thing, it doesn't matter.  Don't make contracts you can't keep. 

If, as some people seem to want, these promises don't have to be kept, then why the hell should anyone give anything to any crowdfunded project?  It's not as if the people who funded the project get some percentage of the returns.  Basically, that position amounts to the idea that an entrepreneur should be able to have no risk, but the potential for great reward.  On the other hand, the backers have all the risk, and the best reward possible is the thing they were promised in the first place.  If the game makes 2 billion dollars, the backers get nothing extra.

If you want kickstarter to be that, just a place for virtual handouts for programmer bums, don't expect much in the way of quality or interest in large projects, since people keep getting burned by broken promises.  You already see this, people keep swearing off crowdfunding after their latest interesting project just ran off with the money (or spent it all trying).

If you want kickstarter to actually be a platform for novel ideas that mainstream publishers aren't willing to take a risk on, then hold the developers accountable!  They're still getting an awesome deal! A publisher takes on the risk, yes, but they take most of the reward as well.  Crowdfunded projects have the risk taken on by the community, and the dev gets all the reward! The only reward the funders get is the game itself!  So naturally it would make sense for their funding to be protected, and an MVP must be shipped, or the dev gets to get sued.

So keep defending devs who deliver nothing if you don't mind crowdfunding to be nothing but a feel good novelty.  If you'd like to continue to see actual good things come out of kickstarter and other crowdfunding platforms, keep demanding accountability. 

And this should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, none of this means that any form of harassment is OK.  The accountability I talk about is financial, nobody should be getting attacked for failing to deliver on their promises, only sued.

[nenjin]

Plenty of Kickstarters do what they say they will and produce great products. This is the 2nd Kickstarter out of 20 I’ve backed that was a bust.

So the “consumer outrage” seems misplaced. Hate on this one project but it’s not enough for the size of the soap box you’re currently shouting from.