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Author Topic: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!  (Read 372467 times)

nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2370 on: September 27, 2016, 12:57:19 pm »

Eh, sometimes things pan out, sometimes they don't. I'm not soured on Kickstarter but.....when part of your brain goes "this sounds too good to be true", chances are it will be on some level. Whether that's total failure due to scope or something like Mighty No. 9. This isn't "it" for Kickstarter for me. But it's made me more cautious of less obvious red flags.

I still haven't given up on the game but at this point I don't know what it'd be if/when it released. It looks different (I also prefer, ultimately, the original look compared to what I'm seeing of the map) and what the world is doing is now once again opaque and incomprehensible to me. Like, I dunno, Rogue U or Rogue Redemption or whatever the hell it calls itself now, TWS may become one of those games that just ends up done one day and I will have thought little about it when it arrives. (If it arrives.)
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Mephansteras

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2371 on: September 27, 2016, 01:15:01 pm »

Actually, Kickstarter has been a pretty big success for me overall.

I decided to go through my email and look at all the projects I've backed. Looking at just the computer games, since that's what is relevant here.

Of the 33 games that I've backed:
20 have given me a released product. (How good they are is variable, but that's true regardless)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4 have not finished but have released alpha/beta/whatever builds to play with
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6 have not finished, not released anything playable yet, but claim to still be in progress (including TWS)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Only 3 have outright failed to give me anything at all.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Even if all of the projects that haven't given me a final product yet somehow fail, I'm still pretty good ratio-wise for something that is a known gamble from the start.

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Zangi

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2372 on: September 27, 2016, 01:44:51 pm »

Indeed, the rate of return is pretty decent for kickstarter.   

Just that this one is pretty prolific compared to some of the others who have crawled off into the deep dark and never returned to the light.  And oh yea, Net Gain... I had put money into that too.
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Neonivek

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2373 on: September 27, 2016, 01:49:01 pm »

Indeed, the rate of return is pretty decent for kickstarter.   

Just that this one is pretty prolific compared to some of the others who have crawled off into the deep dark and never returned to the light.  And oh yea, Net Gain... I had put money into that too.

Nuh uuuuuhhh! Remember that statistic? Only 25% of kickstarters have a return.

OHH WAIT sorry... that statistic was a load of bollocks because it specifically meant "are currently in Early Access".
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2374 on: September 27, 2016, 02:07:44 pm »

Early Access is its own trap though. And frankly, I think it's become rather insulting to consumers that any game developer--whether they be AAA or Indie--has the balls to not only release unfinished games and have us pay for them, but then release "finished products" and have us pay for those and then actual finish them with DLC. People are just too dumb or young to understand or remember better times.
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ventuswings

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2375 on: September 27, 2016, 06:20:39 pm »

Well, That Which Sleeps is very likely not going anywhere (although perhaps it'll be revived one day, in lesser form or not - there are games which development seems to have fallen under hiatus only to be suddenly released) but I would chalk that more up to disastrous way the developer handled the PR.


Another Kickstarter I've been closely following over the years is Rain World, and although the game did and is currently undergoing lengthy information blackout, I have 100% certainty in it releasing within a year.

I know the game's been present on PAX and have playable demo so situation is bit different, but even if these had not existed in reality, the developers have been excellent in regards to their updates on TIG forum that I cannot believe the game will become vaporware. They always seem to have sense of progress & addition... having purpose instead of stalling on a limbo.

Actually, I remember That Which Sleeps built great excitement exactly because of excellent response & development posts from KingDinosaurGames; it's pretty fascinating how two similar AI-focused games with amazing development updates managed to diverge so far in their eventual fate. Admittedly, failure of Josh to consistently meet their deadlines were alarming... at least Rain World kept such promises and visible PR to minimum.

Still, I suspect it mostly came down to AI problem somehow downright halting the entire development.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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forsaken1111

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2376 on: September 27, 2016, 06:54:51 pm »

Let us not forget that this game also had showcased a 'playable demo' at one point before everything was refactored to infinity
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Neonivek

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2377 on: September 27, 2016, 06:56:01 pm »

I kind of wish at this point the creator would just drop a few of the stretch goals...

But then again also... it might be too late for that.
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Majestic7

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2378 on: September 28, 2016, 07:15:05 am »

Honestly, I think Kickstarter is fine as such. The list referred earlier contains many great games. It is the stretch goals and Early Access that are deadly traps.

Extra goals might include things requiring restructuring of the entire game, which in turn can blow up the internal game logic and all schedules. EA, on the other hand, can form a toxic community around the game that poisons it. This can happen either by destroying the developers motivation to work on the game or by a small, loud group driving the devs into taking the game into a harmful direction. (IMHO this happened with Mordheim.)

These risks are especially true with newbie developers who might be too personally invested into the game. Only game that has burned me in EA due to the developers just being a bag of lying dicks is Spacebase DF-9, where DoubleFine just abandoned the game and declared it complete. In my case, that just landed the company on my Never-Buy-Anything-Ever-From-Them -list. Plus reminding of this story whenever any of their games come up elsewhere, as surely it shows their unreliability regarding customers. 
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Cthulhu

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2379 on: October 06, 2016, 02:41:02 am »

So what would people think if I said I was considering making a board/card game of the basic ideas here?  I think there's a lot of potential here, and my idea's distinct enough I don't think it's really stealing any more than the basic "evil overlord waking up and trying to subvert the world" thing.  Two player asymmetrical, with one player as the Dark Lord and one as the Chosen One.

The "board" is a set of cards laid out with connections between them.  That gives it instant readability, with the full rules for each location right there on its card, as well as modularity.  Swap some cards around to make a new map, or randomly draw the whole board.  Rules for that won't be considered until I have the core gameplay figured out though, of course.

The core gameplay loop is closest conceptually to netrunner, with some RPG and wargame type systems supplementing it for theme and additional functionality.   One player is the Dark Lord (think sauron more than cthulhu) and his gameplay resembles TWS.  He's got minions who serve as his actions per round, dark power which functions like mana and gates the power of actions, and various cards representing schemes, equipment, spells, defenses, etc.  The basic action available to him is placing a minion and a scheme at a location anywhere on the map.  The scheme remains on the board until it's discarded at will by the dark lord, interrupted by the chosen one, or it matures, which takes time based on the difficulty of the scheme and the minion's skill in the relevant ability (Summoning a demon is Lore, subverting a kingdom Diplomacy, etc.  Standard board game stuff). 

So the dark lord, like the corp in netrunner, essentially sets the pace and terrain of the game by creating threats and challenges that the chosen one must figure out how to respond to.  Various cards can be played on a scheme to protect it, like guards, traps, etc.  If schemes are hidden until interrupted, this adds the additional dynamic of red herrings and trap schemes.  If you know where the chosen one's hiding, lure him out with a dummy scheme and pop a trap on him, but you're wasting time and resources if he doesn't take the bait.  Haven't decided how I'd work that one though, face-down schemes.  The Dark Lord wins by victory points, gained by subverting and conquering the nations of the world, or by killing the chosen one.

Anyway, the Chosen One's where things get a little different.  Rather than being like TWS where the chosen one is unknown, the Dark Lord knows who he is, but can't find him.  The Chosen One has a hidden movement mechanic where he records his movements on a sheet hidden from the Dark Lord.  Instead of agents he can gather followers, other heroes he can keep in his entourage or send out on their own to give him greater reach.  The tradeoff there is pretty obvious, he can send out his guys for more actions but that limits his personal power, a la War of the Ring's fellowship mechanic.  Like the Dark Lord the Chosen One can win through victory points by uniting the nations and freeing occupied territory from the Dark Lord, or by gathering up enough heroes and artifacts and spells to take the fight to him and destroy him directly.

The biggest difference from TWS is the chosen one focus.  Nations take a backseat and function mostly as terrain, obstacles and objectives for the players to compete over.  Getting a nation on your side gives you control of its army, though you'll have to dedicate a character card to controlling it if you want it to do more than defend its home, plus various benefits like equipment and special heroes, and hindering enemy actions in the nation's territory. 

One thing I like about the concept is that there's several paths to victory and the character-based action system lets you divide your efforts among one or both of them however you want.  As the dark lord you could ignore the chosen one and focus on heavily defended schemes to take over the nations and conquer them, or you could scour the land to hunt him down, or anywhere in between, and likewise with the Chosen One.
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2380 on: October 06, 2016, 04:06:09 am »

Might be hard to translate to gameplay, with nearly everything being hidden from each other, but sounds nice.

Of course, one could just put a fantasy spin on risk and have the dark one as a special dude - or add a gamemaster to the entire thing, mhmm...

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Majestic7

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2381 on: October 06, 2016, 04:08:49 am »

Personally, I prefer my board games simple. Anything more complicated than Eldtrich Horror just gets too complex and becomes work instead of play. Complex games are great with computers when you don't have to remember all the rules. However, that just means I'm not in the target demographic.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2382 on: October 06, 2016, 10:22:33 am »

If you can think of (any number) of simple rules that add up to complex emergent gameplay, then you should be set.
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Cthulhu

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2383 on: October 06, 2016, 10:47:42 am »

I've done enough game design to know these are famous last words, but I don't see this being extremely complex.  Certainly not as complex as Eldritch Horror, though it'll be similarly cards-all-over-the-place.  There's a few basic actions each player can take and the variety in those actions comes from cards, which all have their function explained right there.

As for hidden elements, there's really only two that aren't in every game of this type.  The chosen one is hidden and moves via paper sheet, which has been done in a few games, and the Dark Lord's schemes, if I do it this way, start facedown, along with whatever cards he's attached to them.  He puts time tokens on top of the card to show how many turns until the scheme matures, and then the scheme flips when the chosen one engages it or uses an ability to reveal it.

The chosen one's entire entourage is hidden with him, possibly helping or hindering his attempts to stay hidden.  If he sends followers they become visible to minimize complexity; only the chosen one needs to be tracked.  The Dark Lord can use schemes and cards to try to track the chosen one down.  For example he could just plop a minion down where he thinks the chosen one is and test his searching ability, revealing him if he's there or determining how many turns ago he was there last.  One of the kingdoms will have a spy network ability that'll let the dark lord pay a cost (gold, if I implement that, or dark power) to test an area without using a minion.  Schemes can be even stronger, akin to rumors in eldritch horror, immediate threats that can end the game if not addressed.  A minion does a ritual to see through the eyes of crows and now the map is slowly filling with crow tokens that reveal the chosen one if he enters their space, cordoning him off until he can dispel it.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 01:39:17 pm by Cthulhu »
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Mephansteras

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2384 on: October 06, 2016, 11:36:14 am »

I like the idea, it has good potential.
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