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[Cthulhu]

Didn't all of the technical problems arise from expanding the game's scope to work with randomly generated maps, scenarios, and all this other way-more-complex-stuff?  And didn't they say something to the effect of 'fuck man, I dunno if we can do that, that shit looks pretty tough'?

I mean like, I personally pushed for the increased complexity stuff because it sounded super hype.  Even if it didn't pan out so great, I appreciate that they went for it and am on their side and such, because it's exactly the kinda thing that I want made, and all that.

Actually to my knowledge the game being delayed due to stretch goal bloating is an assumption based on nothing really.

It SEEMS to be almost exclusively the AI that delays this game from having anything presentable out.

Except it's pretty much exactly what he said.

Specifically, the initial giant delay (the game was apparently almost finished when the kickstarter went through) was to replace the old campaign cartographer map with a modular design that could handle procedural generation and in-game map modification.  He posted lots of in-progress map samples and eventually sent out the mapmaker (which actually worked, though there were no features or anything, just terrain).  The other thing he said he was doing was decoupling the old hardcoded elements to make them dynamic for extended mode.  Originally the Alliance formed under specific conditions and happened every game, but for extended mode it would need to be based on the whims of the magic AI with possibility for multiple alliances, and for alliances to appear and disappear over the course of a game.

And it was that reorganization that dragged the game way out past its apparent due date and in the process he broke everything.

[Egan_BW]

Hmm. Magic AI on that level sounds like practically a Dwarf Fortress-level undertaking. I have no idea if KDG could even be capable of it given enough time, but he certainly doesn't have enough time or money to do it now. I'll be glad to play this game as it was first described, in any case.

[JumpingJack]

Hmm. Magic AI on that level sounds like practically a Dwarf Fortress-level undertaking. I have no idea if KDG could even be capable of it given enough time, but he certainly doesn't have enough time or money to do it now. I'll be glad to play this game as it was first described, in any case.

Truth. Maybe he'll be able to add some things in post-release. If not, and if people want it badly enough, then There Will Be Mods™.

[Egan_BW]

And for those things too hardcoded to be modded, TWS2?

[ChairmanPoo]

Hmm. Magic AI on that level sounds like practically a Dwarf Fortress-level undertaking. I have no idea if KDG could even be capable of it given enough time, but he certainly doesn't have enough time or money to do it now. I'll be glad to play this game as it was first described, in any case.

... actually, it sounds exactly like DF's bloat goals. They probably should have planned it in the same manner...

[Xantalos]

And for those things too hardcoded to be modded, TWS2?

Seems like the best goal to aim for, to be honest.

After all, Crusader Kings 2 is the better remembered one.

((actually I don't know if there even was a ck1))

[Egan_BW]

Apparently there was.
Only ten dollars to see how much worse it was!

Come to think of it, trying to get published by Paradox might have been a better idea than kickstarting. Ah well.

[nenjin]

Come to think of it, trying to get published by Paradox might have been a better idea than kickstarting. Ah well.

"He said disregarding Paradox's track record for QC."

[Criptfeind]

Apparently there was.
Only ten dollars to see how much worse it was!

It's a pretty good game actually. Really quite aged by now of course.

[Cthulhu]

It was pretty annoying.  There weren't really any internal loyalty or range checks for small independents when considering possible lieges, so once you were well-established you would constantly get counties all over god damn Europe petitioning you for vassalage.

You'd be playing Sicily and have control of half of Italy, and suddenly a dude in Ireland wants to be your vassal.  And he won't shut the fuck up about it.

One of the biggest time limiters for me was how many vassalage petitions a minute I could handle before I gave up trying to do anything.  Eventually you'd have ten or fifteen of them pestering you every few minutes and nothing can make them stop aside from giving in.

[Culise]

It did have its quirks.  Comparing it to CK2 also has one additional issue in that CK1 wasn't actually originally going to be developed by Paradox at all.  It was spun off to their Russian associates (Snowball, I believe) who had done some translation work for them in the past, but when it completely trainwrecked and the original developers bailed out, Paradox took over development, cleaned up what they could, and published it.  It's nothing short of miracle how well CK1 managed to get turned around.

[ChairmanPoo]

Update from the KS boards from a superbacker

No real news from the weekend, King was at a wedding so no meeting
He posted some...thing about how this is all not his fault and justifications, to be honest I didn't read it too much - best extract
' I also don't have the ability or resources to take them over and then hire someone else to "fix" it - because I can't dig into it and see if it's working in the first place, or if there is even anything workable here. I am not going to alienate the only person with the skills and ability to work on the project by strong arming.'
The ending through
'.. I am not walking away - I just have to wait til Josh decides he is 'done' before I try to get the pieces and figure out what I can do with them. Every time I talk with him he assures me he's still working on it - so I take that at face value."
Basically Josh is in the driving seat he either finishes this or walks, King is....his manager I guess
Looks like we're entering another quite period, maybe something next weekend meeting, probably a 'the tech demo won't be till October+' is my bet - changing the AI being the reason
....Maybe we should set an excuses bingo game up

....Fun comment from the forums
'I don't know about you folks but watching this fiasco has almost been enough entertainment for me to have gotten my money's worth at this point.'

[puke]

....Fun comment from the forums
'I don't know about you folks but watching this fiasco has almost been enough entertainment for me to have gotten my money's worth at this point.'

I never had any expectations about wither the game would ever successfully launch or how good it would be if it did.  I backed it because I enjoy reading about the development process and the intended features seemed challenging to implement and should have made good reading.

But not everyone has the blogging skills and work ethic of Josh Ge, so sort of a failure there.  On the otherhand, sometimes learning about the pitfalls of bad program management and customer relations is valuable in its own right.  So, thanks?  I guess?

I guess I wouldn't call it a waste of money, but I would have preferred to spend that money on learning something slightly different.

[Sergarr]

Let's hope that he could at least do the simplified AI thing. Though, the lack of any discernible progress milestones is worrying. And the fact that Josh is the one who sets the "done" flag, given his love of perfection.

[JumpingJack]

For those that haven't seen it, there was an update.

No word on what's going on with the AI, but we get a look at the new map style and some fun facts about gameplay.