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Author Topic: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!  (Read 373512 times)

ventuswings

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #870 on: October 18, 2014, 04:25:16 pm »

I actually don't prefer voice over in abstract games like this; besides the fact there always tend to be one voice I cannot stand, inclusion of such "physical" element takes imagination away from me - when I imagine particular agent to sound particular way and it conflicts with VO, it could be grating (especially since most Agent represents subtype of individuals instead of one particular person, meaning The Peddler who serves me on one game is not going to be the same person who served me on another game).

Well, it's my personal preference and I am sure there will be option to turn it off, but if you do decide to use VO as potential stretch goal, I'd really appreciate it if you at least offer some option to choose between VO and more "game content" like Astfgl66 suggest.

I think more Agents/Races are still nice thing to have since it introduces new coding therefore more possibility for base game and the modders to play around. I'm also someone who plays the game I buy for months if not years (for example, I have played Civ IV up to four years by now) so more and more balanced diversification is always a good thing - in fact, Dwarf Fortress offer massive possibilities and it's one of the reason why it is so popular & stands against the test of time.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 04:27:48 pm by ventuswings »
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Darkmere

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #871 on: October 18, 2014, 04:27:56 pm »

Yeah, i could take or leave voiceovers, personally. More game content means more variety and longevity, while VO stuff will be the same every game and once you've heard it, that's pretty much that.
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Nick K

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #872 on: October 18, 2014, 04:34:04 pm »

I'm with ventuswings. Really good VO is cool once or twice but game content makes every playthrough better and just adds much more overall enjoyment for me.
Plus, I'm sure every developer plans for their VO to be really good, but I've seen enough games where it didn't improve the experience or even took away from it to believe that it's not something that's easy to get right.

Also, different accents can 'not work' for different people - especially if it's the player's in-game alter-ego being voiced. Personally, it's hard to keep up the immersion of someone being "me" if they have a clear American accent.

Of course, I have no problem with being outvoted if I'm in the minority, but if there was a backer vote mine would definitely be for game content instead of VO.
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Jalak

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #873 on: October 18, 2014, 04:48:14 pm »

Wow, went to sleep, got up, and now there's an extra $3000. Where the hell did that come from?
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Romanul

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #874 on: October 18, 2014, 06:19:02 pm »

I am against VO. Not really my thing. I'd rather have underground than that. Since more game development is our of the question I will go for graphics. There has to something more you can improve (portraits, map) or just more plain content.
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TempAcc

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #875 on: October 18, 2014, 06:23:35 pm »

Voice overs really irk me, its something I'll probably just turn off. IMHO they never actualy add anything interesting to gameplay, specialy in a game like this, in which you're just going to stare at maps for most of the time, making VOs seem even more unescessary, and a bad voice actor can really ruin immersion/mood of the game.

Like yea, sometimes they can be awesome if you have some REALLY good voice actors, but after one or two playthroughs, they tend to get in the way and just become repetitive. This has happened to me in pretty much every game with voice overs that I have played more then one.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 06:25:26 pm by TempAcc »
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Cthulhu

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #876 on: October 18, 2014, 06:25:14 pm »

I'm putting a vote in against VOs as well.  not much point and like they've said, a bad one can be worse than none at all.
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TTHSK

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #877 on: October 18, 2014, 06:27:24 pm »

I'd much rather new agents or even just there being more money in case something goes wrong than voice overs.
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TempAcc

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #878 on: October 18, 2014, 06:35:22 pm »

Yea, and its important to point out that this is the kind of game that is meant to be played multiple times, since it can cause a myriad of different scenarios in each playthrough and procedurally generated maps and enemy behavior and etc, meaning that voice over would be popping up very often and probably become repetitive REALLY fast.

Voice overs are for more actiony, adventure or "cinematic" (urgh) games, not a grand strategy-eske fantasy game.

Like, imagine playing dominions with voiceovers. Probably not the best thing ever after a few games, even if the voice actors consisted of morgan freeman, sean connery and patrick steward.
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rylen

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #879 on: October 18, 2014, 07:34:44 pm »

And thus, we have a new Race! Now, the question is, what can we do with the last 3 days?

As for what I have see so far, I also prefer Minotaur. I like the lore surrounding them the most, but as the potential that they might unwittingly know how to defeat you, even if they don't know who you are, via ANCIENT ORAL TRADITION.

One of the reasons we cut Minotaurs from the original design plan is that it seems to ALWAYS MAKE SENSE to crush them right away.  They are an exotic culture with a foreign race so no one cares about them, and they threaten to give yet another type of Lore bonus to the civilized world if they are brought into the fold.   Still, it was a somewhat painful loss because we had a whole system designed around their unique lore and multiple interactions with slaver states and magocracies/mage guilds.

We put them back in as part of the stretch goal because a) Tribal Humans needed another interesting party to make their areas more diversified and b) with rival old ones they now can become an early point of "cold war" contention between the old ones, since they would make powerful tools to use against other dark gods.
That sounds cool. I suspect they need the right scenarios. Set them up so you can choose to build up their grievances, strengthen ties with the orcs and others who will fight against the civilizations, and otherwise bring them into contention, versus ignoring them and hoping they do not develop in ways that undermine you. Other places, they would be the minor nuisance you want to crush before they get bigger.

For me, the above is why I have "no love" for the Dragonkin. TWS is making heavy use of existing fantasy tropes and I don't see where they fit. The Minotaurs are Noble Savages and your choices are push them towards savagery, build a civilization to include them, or hope they do not go against you. The Mindflayers represent the unknowably eldrich in a tidy package. But what are the Dragonkin? I have not been following the Hasbro/Wizards/D&D fiction line, but I cannot think of any literary half-dragons besides the Dragonlance books. And those were heavily tied into the stories lore. They felt tacked on, to me, in 4th ed. D&D.

I don't think I asked my question about turning procedurally generated worlds into scenarios well. Having stopped generation, will I be able to open it up in the editor, modify some leaders, add a POI for the Baron, and otherwise tweak things. It would be a bit more work than sharing a DF seed and map location, but much less than a full custom scenario. I can see the community wanting to distinguish the two, but it makes for a potential core to build a story out of.

In terms of your next stretch goal, I'm also not a big fan of Voice Overs. I have no idea about pricing, but FTL benefits hugely from the sound. Would more tracks be a valid goal? I'd also like to see a commitment to post release scenarios.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #880 on: October 18, 2014, 08:14:25 pm »

I don't check this for one day and 5,000$ was added.. Wow, all stretch goals seems easy now! I'm so very excited for this game, thank you Kingdinosaur for presenting this to us so openly the entire process. Made it easy to back. :]
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #881 on: October 18, 2014, 08:30:20 pm »

And thus, we have a new Race! Now, the question is, what can we do with the last 3 days?

As for what I have see so far, I also prefer Minotaur. I like the lore surrounding them the most, but as the potential that they might unwittingly know how to defeat you, even if they don't know who you are, via ANCIENT ORAL TRADITION.

One of the reasons we cut Minotaurs from the original design plan is that it seems to ALWAYS MAKE SENSE to crush them right away.  They are an exotic culture with a foreign race so no one cares about them, and they threaten to give yet another type of Lore bonus to the civilized world if they are brought into the fold.   Still, it was a somewhat painful loss because we had a whole system designed around their unique lore and multiple interactions with slaver states and magocracies/mage guilds.

We put them back in as part of the stretch goal because a) Tribal Humans needed another interesting party to make their areas more diversified and b) with rival old ones they now can become an early point of "cold war" contention between the old ones, since they would make powerful tools to use against other dark gods.
That sounds cool. I suspect they need the right scenarios. Set them up so you can choose to build up their grievances, strengthen ties with the orcs and others who will fight against the civilizations, and otherwise bring them into contention, versus ignoring them and hoping they do not develop in ways that undermine you. Other places, they would be the minor nuisance you want to crush before they get bigger.

For me, the above is why I have "no love" for the Dragonkin. TWS is making heavy use of existing fantasy tropes and I don't see where they fit. The Minotaurs are Noble Savages and your choices are push them towards savagery, build a civilization to include them, or hope they do not go against you. The Mindflayers represent the unknowably eldrich in a tidy package. But what are the Dragonkin? I have not been following the Hasbro/Wizards/D&D fiction line, but I cannot think of any literary half-dragons besides the Dragonlance books. And those were heavily tied into the stories lore. They felt tacked on, to me, in 4th ed. D&D.

I don't think I asked my question about turning procedurally generated worlds into scenarios well. Having stopped generation, will I be able to open it up in the editor, modify some leaders, add a POI for the Baron, and otherwise tweak things. It would be a bit more work than sharing a DF seed and map location, but much less than a full custom scenario. I can see the community wanting to distinguish the two, but it makes for a potential core to build a story out of.

In terms of your next stretch goal, I'm also not a big fan of Voice Overs. I have no idea about pricing, but FTL benefits hugely from the sound. Would more tracks be a valid goal? I'd also like to see a commitment to post release scenarios.

Yep, the Genealogical Process creates an actual Scenario File and a flat image (right now it does but we may import the tiles as stamps or otherwise more granular) which is used to load into the main engine.  You can save it, edit it, make a template out of it, whatever you'd like to do.  The two steps are complete black boxes to the other.

We are lucky enough to have a talented composer who is also a good friend of ours, so we have a variety of music we can use.  To be honest I don't share the opinion that VO work, when done judiciously, wouldn't enhance a Grand Strategy game - but we have decided to not go the VO route.  We've narrowed it down to a couple of proposed features, a really "weird" fusion Old One we had developed but said 'no chance', and just more content or supporting art/effects.

I do wonder why Dragonkin fell so flat, I think we didn't sell them properly.  As the only flying race they naturally have unique gameplay, and they "emerge" from any terrain that can host Dragons - appearing like a swarm to immediately colonize adjacent spaces.  The "sudden threat" of this unknown race spawns unique AI reactions - it isn't like Minotaurs appearing (which are known) or orcs raiding - it sends terror across the citizenry.  Raise an army to attack them?  They migrate elsewhere, looting and raiding in their wake. 

As for Lore, they are the forerunners of a lost age, following desires to find certain elements that then spawn campaigns.  If the Dragonkin succeed they will bring back the petrified/lost Dragons of their ancestry.  A "shock the world" event. 

I go back and forth on blatantly describing mechanics vs trying to give some mystery and theme - never sure which approach works better, but perhaps I should have simply laid out the Dragonkin abilities. 

On a side note, I was heavily influenced by the Dragonlance books when I was a kid ("Look Raist, bunnies") though it lasted even more so because I played Arctic, a MUD from.. two decades ago?   I'll never forget the terror of fighting Draconians, or of falling off the Flying Citadel over and over and over.

On "commitment" to post-release scenarios, we will never absolutely commit because there's always the possibility of extenuating circumstances.  I don't want to promise something I can't ABSOLUTELY deliver on.  That being said, we intend to continue to support the game with additional scenarios, agents, content, and mod effects.

I don't check this for one day and 5,000$ was added.. Wow, all stretch goals seems easy now! I'm so very excited for this game, thank you Kingdinosaur for presenting this to us so openly the entire process. Made it easy to back. :]

Glad to hear it, we will continue to be this transparent (though less responsive) when the Kickstarter ends. 
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neo1096

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #882 on: October 18, 2014, 08:46:22 pm »

Yeah with that presentation, I would have definitely had the dragonkin as my first choice after reading the list of races, that information is absolutely key to why they would be good to add. As it stands now, in light of this information, I have gone from Minotaurs to Dragonkin for my vote. I do think some enlightenment when you actually set the voting forward will be in order, just to ensure that the mechanics added would be presented accurately.
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Cthulhu

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #883 on: October 18, 2014, 08:57:20 pm »

I do like that much more.  The dragonkin description didn't have the flair of the other two.

I assume you can subvert their quests?  Bring back the dragons under your control?  Deceive them into funneling that energy into your own resurrection instead?
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #884 on: October 18, 2014, 09:37:10 pm »

I do like that much more.  The dragonkin description didn't have the flair of the other two.

I assume you can subvert their quests?  Bring back the dragons under your control?  Deceive them into funneling that energy into your own resurrection instead?

That's the general idea - it's another example where we try to make it a "expend SIGNIFICANT energy to try and take direct control of the situation" vs "try to gently maneuver the situation to your benefit."  Nothing quite like advising a King to send his elite units to hunt down a dragon.

We will be posting a lot more on mechanics in the Forum Post for the voting so people can make their choice with full information.
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