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[ZeroGravitas]

More accurately, stay clear of kickstarters if you are not into gambling and/or expect a 'payoff' 100% of the time.

I love that people are posting crap like this on page 149 of a thread about a kickstarter that began with the developers saying "we have a working game."

This is not your ordinary "oh, delays" thing. This the developer(s) lying through their teeth about a game that had supposedly already made but in reality didn't exist.

[Serenseven]

Guess I missunderstood you then. Because your wording made it seem like you would only go back to moderating once they showed some actual consistend gameplay, which I interpreted that you resign from your moderation work for now.

No, you got it right, you just went one step further than I did. I'm still a moderator, I'm just temporarily not moderating, on the grounds that until one of the dinos does something to prove the existence of the game (like releasing a "working" build, the definition of "working" being very generous), I don't feel that I'm obligated to put in any more effort on their behalf. Once I'm satisfied that I can say "there is a game, and this is what it looks like" without worrying that it might be a lie, then I'll start moderating actively again.

This the developer(s) lying through their teeth about a game that had supposedly already made but in reality didn't exist.

The pre-kickstarter game (call it TWS 1.0) very well could have existed and very likely did. And if the kickstarter had just barely cleared, or had only reached the first or second stretch goal (i.e., did not make the "Endless Simulation" and "Procedural Generation" goals), it would have long ago had its art sexed up, Religion and/or Rival Old Ones added, and been released ages ago. But it never would have supported the endless/procedural games.

The post-kickstarter version (TWS 2.0) basically had to be rebuilt from scratch to enable support for all the stretch goals. They needed new maps, new hexes, new AI, new everything. This very quickly ran into trouble, as we all know, so I won't repeat it here. But it had nothing to do with whether TWS 1.0 existed or not.

Looking back, what should have probably happened was KDG should have gotten the art together, added Religion, and released that as the "beta" (in other words, continued taking the TWS 1.0 path as originally planned) while working on TWS 2.0 to implement the harder stretch goals. We might still have had these lengthy delays, but at least there would have been no question as to whether a game existed or not - we would be playing it. Of course, that's easy for me to say now: I have both the benefit of hindsight and of not being the one actually trying to write the software.

[JumpingJack]

The pre-kickstarter game (call it TWS 1.0) very well could have existed and very likely did. And if the kickstarter had just barely cleared, or had only reached the first or second stretch goal (i.e., did not make the "Endless Simulation" and "Procedural Generation" goals), it would have long ago had its art sexed up, Religion and/or Rival Old Ones added, and been released ages ago. But it never would have supported the endless/procedural games.

The post-kickstarter version (TWS 2.0) basically had to be rebuilt from scratch to enable support for all the stretch goals. They needed new maps, new hexes, new AI, new everything. This very quickly ran into trouble, as we all know, so I won't repeat it here. But it had nothing to do with whether TWS 1.0 existed or not.

Looking back, what should have probably happened was KDG should have gotten the art together, added Religion, and released that as the "beta" (in other words, continued taking the TWS 1.0 path as originally planned) while working on TWS 2.0 to implement the harder stretch goals. We might still have had these lengthy delays, but at least there would have been no question as to whether a game existed or not - we would be playing it. Of course, that's easy for me to say now: I have both the benefit of hindsight and of not being the one actually trying to write the software.

I like extra features and added shininess as much as the next guy, but presuming that this is how it all went down, this just goes to show how ruinous feature-creep can be. Paradoxically planned feature-creep, at that.

[Xgamer4]

Yeah, stretch goals kill kickstarters. That's not a guarantee, but it's something that anyone using kickstarter should understand. Especially stretch goals like those, where they sound cool, would likely be really cool, but on paper are an absolute nightmare at best to implement. The problem is that many devs feel that they're obligated to provide the stretch goal because they promised it, so we wind up in situations like these.

The reality is that the dev should not promise stretch goals they haven't specced out. But that's probably too idealistic, so the second-best is for devs to realize that things will always be far better received if the way a difficult-bordering-impossible stretch goal is "fulfilled" is with an update saying this feature has been cut, followed by a reasonably thorough explanation as to why.

[Neonivek]

I honestly don't think the Stretch goals is what is seriously slowing the game down (the only one of any supreme effort is the demons), afterall most of the stretch goals are just additional old ones and minions... and to my knowledge the issue the game is running into isn't that there is too much stuff to implement but rather that the AI doesn't work yet.

[nenjin]

Or it's got horrible memory issues after 100 turns or whatever, ends up in deadlocks, straight up crashes due to some core part of the logic that can't easily be removed to deal with later. Assumptions are pretty useless at this point, other than whatever "it" is, prevents Josh from releasing anything and getting some breathing room.

[Xgamer4]

I honestly don't think the Stretch goals is what is seriously slowing the game down (the only one of any supreme effort is the demons), afterall most of the stretch goals are just additional old ones and minions... and to my knowledge the issue the game is running into isn't that there is too much stuff to implement but rather that the AI doesn't work yet.

Well, yeah, but the additional old ones and minions were already specced out. Maybe not completely, but enough to know that it'll take roughly x hours to create, with a possible additional amount that's not too difficult to estimate based on new features.

Nah, the biggest problems were procedural generation and endless simulation. Those two stretch goals were the driving forced behind the massive system overhaul a few years ago. And while it hasn't been explicitly said, it seems reasonable to blame the current problems on that overhaul and it's lofty goals - especially if we accept that the pre-overhaul version was playable. Maybe not perfect, but playable. And it'd make sense, too - procedural generation and endless simulation both require significant generalizations of an AI from what would be required with a fixed timespan and scenario. And we do know that the AI is the main stumbling block.

[ChairmanPoo]

The pre-kickstarter game (call it TWS 1.0) very well could have existed and very likely did.

I say nay. Because if it did exist, they would have given that to the backers. Either as a "beta", or honestly admitting that the stretch goals were getting postponed because of whatever.

I think that at best they had a half-finished product and both their ability to finish it, and their ability to actually improve upon it.

[Neonivek]

I honestly don't think the Stretch goals is what is seriously slowing the game down (the only one of any supreme effort is the demons), afterall most of the stretch goals are just additional old ones and minions... and to my knowledge the issue the game is running into isn't that there is too much stuff to implement but rather that the AI doesn't work yet.

Well, yeah, but the additional old ones and minions were already specced out. Maybe not completely, but enough to know that it'll take roughly x hours to create, with a possible additional amount that's not too difficult to estimate based on new features.

Nah, the biggest problems were procedural generation and endless simulation. Those two stretch goals were the driving forced behind the massive system overhaul a few years ago. And while it hasn't been explicitly said, it seems reasonable to blame the current problems on that overhaul and it's lofty goals - especially if we accept that the pre-overhaul version was playable. Maybe not perfect, but playable. And it'd make sense, too - procedural generation and endless simulation both require significant generalizations of an AI from what would be required with a fixed timespan and scenario. And we do know that the AI is the main stumbling block.

I completely forgot about those.

[SangerZonvolt]

Update on my part:
After four emails with KDG I am unbanned again. I am still not sure who exactly banned me in the first place (I assume Fen, but canīt say for sure) and I am not entirely sure who unbanned me (since I donīt know if Fen or Josh answer the mails), but for now I am back in the loop. If thatīs something to be happy for only time will tell.

[Avaris]

According to a recent comment on the Kickstarter page this project will be dead in 4 weeks if there is no progress. Apparently Fenicks has finally lost his faith in Josh.

Oh well, I guess I will go lurk Starsector development and forget about this project. I was really hopeful too, until the forum purge and all that crap...

[Serenseven]

More recent than the above. Decide for yourself what it means.

Met last night after I got off work and again today.  Two productive meetings - more stuff happening and we've both agreed to work on getting something that resembles some sort of technical alpha / preview something or other just to try to get a base out in people's hands that can be used as a stepping stone for progress.

So whatever, non update, but progress is being made on Joshes side and we've agreed on the path that some of you suggested to get some pre beta asset out there.

[Avaris]

At least it is somewhat reassuring, thanks.

[forsaken1111]

Watching this game's progress has been a roller coaster, but at least that looks like light at the end of the tunnel.

[ChairmanPoo]

I want to believe but...