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Author Topic: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!  (Read 372617 times)

Jalak

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #135 on: August 31, 2014, 08:58:45 pm »

MOAR QUESTIONS.

How thorough do you need to be when you influence a nation for it to be under your control anyway? Not just in order to tell them what to do, but to stop them from listening to anyone trying to speak sense? If I were to corrupt a king, would his commanders with the military still follow him even when they figure out something's not right, or would they need to be infiltrated as well? I'd imagine that feudal kingdoms would be one of the more straightforward ones; just corrupt every single landholder baron.
Actually, when you've taken over a nation and moved on, is it still a good idea for you to spend time lowering the order of the POIs, even though you have relative control of the area? Wouldn't it be beneficial to leave some of the core POIs in the white (or grey) just so your new "friend" doesn't get distracted from running their own nation so they can actually help you? Or am I misunderstanding how order works and overestimating how powerful a corrupt nation actually is?

Also, are there dragons in this game and, if so, are they a very powerful military minion you (or they) can command, or a potential devastating agent/commander?
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #136 on: August 31, 2014, 10:08:23 pm »

Direct Control of civilized nations is NOT common, it is far more common to have strong influence over the leadership that lets you dictate their actions.  The TYPE of action that the Leader takes spawns "threat" which is what draws heroes to investigate, if the King is acting oddly (very oddly) then heroes and champions will come to rid him of your influence, or perhaps rid him of his life. 

Commanders follow orders but are able to defect, either to another nation, the alliance, or to become mercenaries or bandits.  IT's all about how far you want to push things, have a merciful king start slaughtering innocents and declaring war on his peaceful neighbor and there will be some questions being asked. 

You did nail feudal kingdoms, it is the ONLY Government that has a "Barony" subtype per POC - feudal kingdoms are quite capable of breaking apart, reforming, and also keeping their liege in check. 

Is it a good idea to lower order?  Almost always - "Controlling" a nation is, as I implied above, very fluid - unless you defend the king with agents and minions heroes will inevitably attempt to bring him back to the fold, or at least make him neutral. 

I can't say that you overestimate how powerful they are, because it can be a momentous moment, or it can be a waste - picking the right time to throw a monkey wrench in the gears is critical.  YOu also may wish to be more gentle, making a King simply ignore his lands as they slowly waste away, fritter away gold so they can't pay their armies - less obvious paths like this can be very effective.

There are unique dragon minions available based on actions you take, and also there are Dragon based events.  We currently do not support dragons in the military component, but that element of "late game unique powerful military units" is still in development so they may make an appearance.

No dragon agent, there was a Half-Dragon agent on the list but he's pushed to the potential Gods and Religions expansion/stretch goal.
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #137 on: August 31, 2014, 10:09:35 pm »

Everyone, if you could check http://www.reddit.com/r/ThatWhichSleeps/comments/2f4xp0/stretch_goal_priorities/ <- this thread we're asking about votes to prioritize stretch goals.

You don't have to respond on reddit, feel free to respond here - we really want to know what is people's number one priority since we doubt we'd hit more than one stretch goal.
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Migue5356

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #138 on: August 31, 2014, 10:50:51 pm »

Maybe add a poll to this thread?
My votes would be on Rivals and then Sandbox/Endless mode.
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Xantalos

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #139 on: August 31, 2014, 10:55:57 pm »

Aaaaaaaaaaah I like all of them
Endless mode and procedural generation seem like good ones to try for stretch goals since they don't quite change the base structure of the game. Rivals and Gods etc could be expansion packs or DLC if when the game does well.
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #140 on: August 31, 2014, 10:58:30 pm »



Catching up on all the words since I've been out of town for several days.

Dev Log #1 thoughts:

-Love the scenario generation choices. So flavorful. That's like, Dominions 4-level fluff. Delicious. Also glad to hear you've played KoDP, it's one of the most flavorful dialog-based games I've ever played.

-A secondary window explaining some of the background bonuses and trade offs would be helpful. Like how when you select an Elder One, you get that window overlay. Dominions 4 does that for the nations, which have the brief blurb, then the full detailed descriptions. The flavor descriptions seem adequate enough, but I don't think they necessarily correlate logical to what they'll do. Maybe that's how you want it, so people have to explore their consequences of their choices (much like KoDP), but as deeply a strategic game as this is I'd want that information going in. Even just generics like how you described it in the the video, put to text.

-What would you say is the average level of expertise that you're aiming for with regards to modding? Is it just modifying data file templates, or is LUA scripting part of it? That sort of stuff. Because the first thing I'd want to do is mod in the 40k Chaos Gods.

I'm generally satisfied as far as randomization goes. KoDP was much the same way: fixed maps, random tribes, random relationships, circle leaders, ect...that makes it a game I can fire up at any time and feel like I'm getting a true fresh start.

Stretch goals:

1st - Procedural/Genealogical Generation for Random Worlds. I think it adds what is the most valuable to long term gameplay. In terms of replayability, I don't think much can beat the combination of random location + factors for how it works on the imagination.

Gods, Religions, and Cults. While something I'd definitely want, it's slides to second because, in a way, I like that you're really the only power in the world. Although having a religion for yourself does seem like a no brainer.

Endless Mode/Sandbox Mode. I wouldn't say no to it, but I think I like the entire arranged game concept more than the pure simulation. At least so far. On the other hand, you did say the game takes place in a relatively short period of time. If we're talking one game is about the length of a board game of "Arkham Horror", then Endless Mode is definitely more of what I want....because I tend to hate really strict timelines in games I'm enjoying. When I'm enjoying it, I want to stretch that game out to the nth degree. While meaningful choices, consequences and deadline make for a good narrative and compelling gameplay, I sometimes dislike how content feel cut off because the game is so strict about its deadlines.
   
4th Rival Old Ones. Similar to #2, I don't really want someone stealing my thunder. You are THE Great Old One, and frankly heroes and nations and alliances sound like a handful already. I think I almost actively don't want this, but I assume it will be optional.

Anyways, yeah, bring on the second dev video, can't wait. I realized I've wanted a game exactly like this, as I went back to my "Games I'd make if I could program" doc and saw "a game where you play as Sauron and try to stop the Ringbearer."

One question though. How easy would map replacement be? I'm not sure I'm ever going to like the current state of the map visuals (no offense), and I've seen some pretty amazing things done with custom Dominions maps and I think this game would be a shoe-in for things like that. A static image file can be tweaked, tiles replaced, ect....Sort of like Dominions, sometimes if art isn't your forte you can rely on the internet to unleash their talent on your game. The map is the only thing I don't like about the game in its entirety...and with a really nice looking map I think it'd seal the deal on the visual presentation.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 01:56:34 am by nenjin »
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Jalak

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #141 on: August 31, 2014, 11:01:18 pm »

For my vote on the stretch goals:
1) Cults and Religions
2) Random Generation
3) Endless Mode
4) Rival Elder Gods

I admit, it was a close call for the first two, but it sounded like you already had a pretty good idea on what you were going to do with religions, so that seems like the one you're most likely to finish the fastest. As opposed to the Randomizer, which sounds a lot more complex.

Three more questions before my curiosity is completely (temporarily) satisfied  :D.

1) Is there going to be naval based combat, along with naval-specific POIs and boats needing to built/hired/taken for sea-based travel, or is it really only a graphical difference from normal land routes with a cursory "start-in-port end-in-different-port" move option?

2) If the Chosen One dies and you're not actually responsible for it, or don't even know the hero you just killed/corrupted was actually him, do you get notified by a little pop-up saying "You feel the winds of fate shift" or something? Or is the only real indication that happened would be when you find the next one and the only hint would be when you realise that he's not as strong as he's supposed to be?

3) Since you said a Chosen One is picked immediately after killing/corrupting the last one, and you've hinted before that you can capture heroes, does that mean that I could, theoretically, capture the Chosen One, stow him somewhere "safe" and just leave him to rot in the dungeon while I go around doing my own thing without risk of some uber-hero messing with me? Or is it a case where captured heroes slowly go insane/starve so, eventually, the Chosen One will clock out and a new one will be chosen then. Either way, it sounds like a good strategy (assuming he doesn't escape first).

This last one is more of a suggestion, really. Assuming you haven't done so, I think it would be a good idea for there to be some sort of quick "rename" button next to heroes, agents and other important characters (kings, guild masters, etc.) in the info screen. This is so that if I come across someone that I get attached to (or as much as I can to someone trying to kill me) or already has someone else under the same basic name, I can just change it to something with more flavor. You could even use it to rename the "heroic" type ones to something more sinister when you corrupt them as well. I know you said that there's a editor, but I'd rather have a quick, easy option rather then switch to an entirely different menu that, since it's an editor, accidentally make me see something I shouldn't when I'm just to add more of a personal touch to things.

Edit: Actually, another question for the Chosen One: How powerful is he compared to a hero of the same class/level? What sort of boosts does he get, and what sort of abilities/actions can he can take unique only to him?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 11:18:07 pm by Jalak »
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #142 on: August 31, 2014, 11:54:49 pm »

Yeah, as an addendum to his observation, I feel like the amount of feedback this game needs to give is massive. You seem to lean heavily on Infiltration as a means of knowing what's going on tactically, and that sounds pretty cool. But if a hero gets a crippling injury or goes mad and I made didn't directly have a hand in it, I'd still like to know about it when it happens. Rather than finding out 3 turns later that he's walking in circles speaking in tongues and having to deduce why. If some things are going to become common knowledge to the rest of the world sooner or later (like the fate of heroes) if I feel like you shouldn't have to strategize so hard to get that information. Like their need to be two hierarchies of feedback: general world news and specific details and happenings that rely on infiltration to help you strategize. As another example, if I've been working on fomenting conflict between two nations for a few turns, and then I turn my attention elsewhere (with my agents or perhaps I just space off that they're there doing stuff), I'd want the game to tell me "War has broken out between X and Y!", because that's going to be common knowledge to the rest of the world pretty much immediately (I'd think.)
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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How will I cheese now assholes?
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Neonivek

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #143 on: September 01, 2014, 12:20:24 am »

I think the standard way you say it is that the game needs to be a bit more transparent.
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #144 on: September 01, 2014, 01:17:38 am »

Alright, nice feedback already!  Based on all the places I posted this, Procedural is in the lead so far but plenty of time for my favorite (Religion) to catch up!

Ok, let me answer some questions:

Map Replacement - drag and drop. Fire up the editor, load your file, drag off the background image, drag on your new one.  You'd doubtless need to move around the POIs so they make sense again, unless you just made an exact to scale copy of the given map that you are replacing.  It really is that simple. 

Yeah the map... I don't know... we spent literally 6 monthes of time going back and forth on map styles.  This is what we could do with our time, money, and talent. I am a terrible, terrible artist and our maps either tended to be too abstract or too cartoonish.  This was a good compromise, and I'm generally pleased with how it looks.  Would we ever replace it?  Procedural generation will REQUIRE a tileset to be functional, so that will necessarily produce an alternative map.  Finding portrait artists is easy, but finding 2D tile artists who can capture the type of look and feel we want is surprisingly hard.

On a side note, as much as I initially was wary of everyone wanting Procedural Generation, we did a POC this morning as I described it and I kind of am sold on the idea.  The major hurdle is graphics - thankfully the POI system once again makes the kind of algorithms you need to do genealogical generation shockingly simple.  Endless mode still doesn't really hold much of an appeal, but seems very popular - I'd love someone to try and sell me on the idea so I can better implement it.

Additional information on the Old Ones... I'm mixed?  I do want, as you were saying, a bit of the mystery to their play - but in actuality their is a standard ability tree once you get in game so it may just be unnecessary obfuscation.  I'll make a note on the Tester's feedback form to review, but it will be low priority because we obviously are cramped for time now.  Maybe I'll just drop in the ability tree view as an overlay?

The modding is simple, simple, simple - think of the Civ 4 In-Game editor, it's that easy.  We dump to XML via helper classes for every object, and any serialized variable can be affected and called in the editor.  We do NOT have Lua scripts currently supported, it was always our intention to go back and add that in but it has fallen by the wayside - but the level of functionality you could GENERALLY achieve with lua scripting is accessible in the editor.   I think people will generally be happy with what they can achieve, and if not we have everything exposed so it's relatively trivial for us to extend modding support even further.

Funny that you mention "Be Sauron and Stop the Ringbearer", I would say the true genesis for this idea, even outside of its pandemic-style branch, was the board game War of the Ring - which did such a good job of marrying theme and mechanics that I just sing its praise to anyone who will listen.

More questions!

1) Naval Combat actually doesn't exist right now, we still have to develop it (all things military were the last elements to be added).  What exists today is Naval Zones, which (if a nation has a boat in) you can convoy over - great for rapid movement.  Naval battles will be core in most maps, given how rapidly it allows you to move troops.  It's much, much, much simpler than land battles, pretty much "navies contest eachother" and whoever wins controls the zone.  Auto-blockade for hostile ports, etc. 

2) The Chosen One cannot die without your interference, fate has a plan for him - even if that plan ends with you slaughtering him.  Any quest he is involved in that you do not contest he at the very least "Succeeds" at it, even if not overwhelmingly.   However, if he does die by a passive effect of yours, let's say you left an Orc Assassin at a POI and he quests there and the Assassin gets him (VERY UNLIKELY unless he was already hurt severely) you get a message popup informing you of his death and giving glory to the minion who did it.  You will absolutely be informed.

3) You can capture the Chosen One - capture assigns that Hero to the agent who captured him who can then torture him, perform rituals, sacrifice, drag him back to the Seal for a little dip in a pool of evil, etc.... however, and this is really, really fun - it generates a Threat Quest for all heroes, especially friends, and if its the Chosen One the threat is HIGH.  So that agent is going to have a ton of people hunting him down to rescue the Chosen One.  Some minions grant traits that drive captives insane, but mostly they just stay with you until freed or "dealt with", though they can also trigger escape events under certain circumstances.

On another note, you can "imprison" heroes if you infiltrate the Guardhouse of a city, or if you are Welcome at Court.  They generally sit around until released, sometimes with a negative attribute gained, although you can also "have them executed" as another action.  These actions, as usual will raise suspicion and create threat quests in that area.  Pulling strings is always dangerous.  It's useful because it appears on the Challenge screen, so if a hero is getting "too close" you can have your corrupt guards toss him in the dungeon.

Honestly I didn't want people to rename heroes and agents, but my business partner convinced me it made sense.  So yes, you can just click on their name and rename it.  Can't rename Kings though, just Heroes and Agents.  I could add the same thing for kings as well.

Oh man, you really want me to spoil the Chosen One?  Well he gets early a "hidden" trait that is called "Fate Wills It" where he always passes quests.  We wanted him to be at an advantage, but not be a definitive Chosen One.  So he'll have a string of successes but so could another Hero.  He gains additional skill-ups and has a higher rate of learning traits and skills, but this is all again non definitive elements.  When he gets to level 4 (each class has 3 levels, so 4 is his first Tier 2 Class) he gets a unique ability based on the class, and this is when Prophecy quests begin to pop up.  The most important one is where he "accepts his destiny" then he starts gaining his obviously chosen one abilities, and where special events start triggering around him and with the Old Ones.  Late Game he's a beast, having gained double stat gains for 9 levels, many traits, tons of friends, powerful spells (all depending on his archetype) - and his special events are game changing.  For example, he can declare a "Haven" for people which makes a single POI immune to all of your abilities and drastically increases its order.  Very, very annoying depending on wisely the AI uses it (right now I'd say it's not ALWAYS the best hoice by the AI but we're working on that).  He can also follow high level campaigns that may bring him to be the King of one of the nations, to discover an ancient weapon that was sonce used against you, to ascend to another plane where he returns changed - there's 6 right now and each one is pretty brutal. 

If you want more I can give a list of some of the abilities, for example as a Dragoon he gains Ardent Defender which means he defends ALL heroes who wish to be defended in a battle.  It's a little hard to imagine why that's good right now (until you see Dev Video 3), but in combat mages go down in one hit - but they are guarded, having one extremely beefy hero blocking all damage to their mages can be enough to lose a battle.

The last thing I'll say about the Chosen One is he has a fantastic event chain with Sisyphus, very fun to play out.

Yep, I get what you're saying about feedback.  ALL major events pop up on the right side of the screen - even bigger ones actually appear in massive text on the screen itself (like "war").  But there is some room there where events may go on without your knowledge, such as a hero dying or going insane - this may occur as part of their random questing and you won't know until you bump into a crazy hero.  I think that's going to remain, otherwise the amount of information coming in would be overwhelming.  "heroes" are really pretty mundane until they hit a level of fame where you always see them on the map, think of them mostly as threadbare adventurers when they're at low levels. 

The other element of feedback, to be specific to what you said, is that they list why.  So if Cylaria declares war on Aventura, they will post a list of provocations so you know "oh hey, I made that happen."  You will see that regardless of infiltration.

Infiltration is mostly to see internal political maneuverings and to see what heroes are doing.  So in the example above, you saw "War was declareD", if you had infiltration in the capital you would FIRST see a "Political Summit" where they decide what to do - with sufficient influence you can push them to war, though they may also declare war of their own accord.

Aside from politics, it will show you Quests and Campaigns.  Ignoring quests can be "ok" as a strategy, but Campaigns (large multi-step quests) are where you want to know ALL of them if possible, and plan to stop which one most affects your strategy. 


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Xantalos

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #145 on: September 01, 2014, 01:23:06 am »

Honestly I can't really rank the things. I like all of them, though as you said Religion seems like it'd be really cool. Whichever you want to put in, I'd be fine with because it's icing on top of the cake at this point.
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #146 on: September 01, 2014, 01:32:48 am »

So is all interaction basically done at POIs, and movement between POIs is abstracted? I was just thinking about your "Haven" as a model for Rivendale, and while Sauron's minions couldn't enter, they'd lurk constantly just on its boarders waiting for the Fellowship to leave so they could gank them. Can you interact with heroes via Agents while between POIs, or cast spells at them? Because they'd be most vulnerable to ambush when they're between cities, where there's no one to report back what happened to them....
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Jalak

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #147 on: September 01, 2014, 02:47:14 am »

Remember when I said I had no more questions? I LIED  8).

Are there any spells or rituals you can use that curse artifacts that other heroes are currently wielding and how likely is it that heroes can discover that they've just been tampered with? Are cursed artifacts also available to "gift" to various national leaders as well, or is it an agent/hero only thing? Is it possible to create your own (without using the editor, i mean) and infuse various bonuses and curses on them? If I can, is it a case where you could "balance" an artifact so that it gives a bonus to whoever wields it, but also hurts them at the same time (like, say, a ring that makes it easier to sneak around but lets me know where he is)? Hell, an artifact with a balance like that could even make it less likely for a hero to figure out its cursed, since it has such a great "benefit".

Speaking of Spells, are there any rituals in the game that drastically change the face of the world (maybe even literally) and pretty much signal the "end times"? I would love being able to open gates to oblivion all over Tamriel the land and watch demons spew forth, even in places I haven't been trying to corrupt. Obviously, that would only be useful once the world is certain you exist, since the amount of threat and ancient clues it leaves behind would be absolutely massive. Maybe some sort of great plague too.

By the way, I don't suppose you have any room for more play testers? I swear I won't immediately run off into the blackened sunset, cackling madly about my "precious" (at least until I conquer the world at least twice....maybe three times). I have a lot of time on my hands right now.
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Lukeinator

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #148 on: September 01, 2014, 06:10:15 am »

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Re: That which sleeps- in development
« Reply #149 on: September 01, 2014, 08:56:44 am »

Ooh, list of things, list of things...  I don't really like the rival old ones idea much, so that one's last on the list.  Gods also I'm low priority on.  The others...  Endless mode could be pretty interesting, removing the old one entirely and playing around with the different agents, playing as more mundane threats.  Procedural generation would be cool though I do like the handcrafted style you're going for.  Procedural generation has the problem of creating lots and lots of very bland stuff.

Would it not be possible to do non-tile based map generation?  Generating random landmasses with some constraints and using an algorithm to determine the layout of terrain?
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