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Author Topic: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.  (Read 207302 times)

smjjames

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #975 on: February 11, 2016, 08:19:32 pm »

There were other attempts that reached this stage? There may have been some early on, but this is the first one that I can recall that even reached this stage. I know there were several attempts at forming a cease fire, but they kept falling apart before reaching the implementation point.
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Strife26

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #976 on: February 11, 2016, 08:23:12 pm »

Yeah, it would be nice if this ceasefire finally holds, but the previous several haven't. Also, I highly doubt that it will include everyone because (as smjjames pointed out) several of the groups see each other as terrorists.

Can I hope for a pony too?
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martinuzz

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #977 on: February 11, 2016, 08:25:10 pm »

Yeah, it would be nice if this ceasefire finally holds, but the previous several haven't. Also, I highly doubt that it will include everyone because (as smjjames pointed out) several of the groups see each other as terrorists.
It won't hold. Even though a lot of rebel parties, and the representatives of Assad agreed on scaling down hostilities over the coming days towards a cease fire, Russia already said they refuse to stop bombing. Also, Al Nusra (and obviously, IS) are not included in the agreement.

Also today, in an interview with the German newspaper Handelsblatt, the Russian prime minister Medvedev warned that "if the peace negotiations fail, that could lead to world war 3."
More specifically, he warns that there should be no US led coalition of ground forces, because "ground offensives have a habit of turning war into permanent war."
https://global.handelsblatt.com/breaking/exclusive-russias-medvedev-warns-of-new-world-war
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 08:32:14 pm by martinuzz »
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smjjames

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #978 on: February 11, 2016, 08:37:15 pm »

Right, and 'theres no Russian ground troops there either, nope, we have no bases there, nothing, nope, nada, zilch, zero'.

I wonder if he has the same opinion of a Russian or Iranian led coalition of ground troops?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #979 on: February 11, 2016, 08:52:01 pm »

Those are just teachers instructing, I believe they call them Instructonators

Helgoland

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #980 on: February 11, 2016, 09:24:21 pm »

Do you have access to that interview? I tried, but it's paywalled.
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Vilanat

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #981 on: February 12, 2016, 03:26:46 am »

Shahada and Tawhid are not identical, it's the whole reason for the different meanings of Imams in Sunnism and Shiite religion. Meaning here, means everything.

Not identical in details but identical in meaning, and yes, that shared meaning and added detail is the basis for the difference between one Islamic branch versus another Islamic branch. the difference between the Alawite Shahada and both the Sunni and Shia's Shahada is the difference between two religions, not sects. having Ali as god, incarnated or not, Emanated or not, it doesn't matter, its the entire difference between Islam and Non-Islam. they literally call god by a different name. how anybody can think two religions are the same even if they pray to different gods is beyond me.

Quote
You quoted the Sunni pillars of Islam and said they're identical to the Shiite Principles. If you were being honest, you would've posted the Shiite principles, and you would've also noted the Nusayri hold onto the pillars in addition to their exegetic tradition that does not hold scripture literally as fundamentalists do and add spiritualism to it. The Hajj is not just a physical journey from one place to another, for them it is as much a spiritual journey from a place of one understanding to a higher one. There are similarities, but the differences are the reason why Sunni and Shiite are not both Sunni or both Shiite, why Alawite are not Twelver. That is before even taking into account the different prescriptions and emphasis on the Sunni pillars vs the Shiite principles and the sect differences. So far you have demonstrated that Alawites are not Sunni, which is besides the point, because they are not Sunni. If we are to believe you, then the Zaidiyyah, the Ismali - heck, even the Twelvers would be non-Muslims, which is completely ludicrous. And they don't contradict the first principle, and if you haven't taken care, you will learn that the meaning of words prescribe beliefs which are at the core of the interstrife, you are yet to demonstrate so without resorting to comparisons to polytheists when they're clearly monotheists who believe in one God. If this discussion is not interesting enough for you, why did you start it by posting lies in a politics thread? This was not an academic point of interest, you posted this in the politics thread to alter the political discourse. Now the big question is why would you have any motive to reduce sympathy for Alawites by declaring them non-Muslim polytheists in a politics thread when the topic is Alawites fighting a life or death struggle against Salafists who use the line that they're non-Muslim polytheists to justify ethnically cleansing them? You either cared so little about your words that you unthinkingly reposted ISIS propaganda from /pol/ or you are actually being malevolent here, my faith in humanity leads me to believe it's the former.

I never quoted the Sunni pillars. i quoted the Shia pillars/roots, go back to the beginning of our discussion and see for yourself. i called them the Twelvers pillars but they are the Shia prinicples. i never bothered to quote the Sunni pillars or confront the Alawite believes with Sunni because nobody thinks the Alawites are Sunni.  it would almost be like wasting time comparing the Alawites to buddhists to try and prove they are not Shiites.

Quote
Lecture me all day if you actually know what you're talking about, but by your own admission you don't give a crap about the topic and you don't know the basic differences between even Sunni and Shiite, let alone between the sects of Shiite Islam. The Alawite triad is not the same as having three Gods, it is not even the same to the Christian Trinity. It is the emanation of one God, it is divinity that originates from one God. That you're using Sunni mainstream Orthodoxy to attack a sect within the Shiite branch already has alarm bells ringing.

I give a crap about the subject matter, i don't give a crap about this discussion because it is not going anywhere.

I don't know the differences between Sunni and Shiite?! Heh, mate, you just tried to maintain the Shiites don't hold the Shahada, you read my quotes of Shiites principles and thought them Sunni and you think the difference between Ali as Imam and Ali as god is trivial within Islam. Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about hence why i find this discussion tiring and redundant.

So, for the last time because i really think this had ran its course, Muslims, both the Shia and the Sunni do not accept any form of divine incarnation or emanation whether you like it or not, so no, i am not using a Sunni mainstream orthodoxy to attack a sect within Shia, i am using the most important Islamic theological principle that is shared by both the Shia and the Sunni to differentiate another religion. i am not saying which is better, i am simply pointing out which is which and who is who.

I didn't post lies, i posted facts and i posted them in a political thread because these differences is what makes a lot of the Iranians treat Alawites as lesser human beings and the widely spread lack of knowledge of these differences is what makes some people think Iran is justified with interfering in Syria..
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martinuzz

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #982 on: February 12, 2016, 05:25:23 am »

Do you have access to that interview? I tried, but it's paywalled.
Sadly, no. I'm not rich enough to be fully informed.

Also guys, could you take that yes-no-yes-no debate to the religion thread?
(sure, it does have an overlap with this thread, but debating about trinities, reincarnation and twelvers' beliefs should really go there)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 07:52:16 am by martinuzz »
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Zangi

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #983 on: February 12, 2016, 11:44:54 am »

Also guys, could you take that yes-no-yes-no debate to the religion thread?
(sure, it does have an overlap with this thread, but debating about trinities, reincarnation and twelvers' beliefs should really go there)
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martinuzz

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #984 on: February 15, 2016, 05:27:06 pm »

And another step closer to WW3.
A hospital from doctors without borders, a child hospital, and a school in Syria were bombarded today. Several dozens dead, amongst which many children, and doctors without borders. Note that these locations are well known to all warring parties, so it's hard to believe this was 'collateral damage'.

Syrian Human Rights Watch, Doctors Without Borders, and Turkey claim the bombardments were done by either Syrian state army, or Russia. Syrian ambassador however says the hospitals were bombarded by the US coalition. The area of the bombardments is not within the US coalition's area of operations though.

France calls the bombardments a war crime. US say the Syrians and Russians should stop bombarding, because they are destroying the peace talks before they start.
Turkey threatens with "serious consequences" if Russia and Syria do not stop bombing near the Turkish border.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/-parijs-luchtaanvallen-syrie-en-rusland-zijn-oorlogsmisdaden~a4245033/

We are all waiting now for Turkey to shoot down another Russian plane, Russia shooting back and article 5
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 05:29:29 pm by martinuzz »
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Descan

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #985 on: February 15, 2016, 06:10:42 pm »

they literally call god by a different name. how anybody can think two religions are the same even if they pray to different gods is beyond me.
nothing about alawites here, but: you know Arab christians call god Allah, right?
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Teneb

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #986 on: February 15, 2016, 06:12:31 pm »

they literally call god by a different name. how anybody can think two religions are the same even if they pray to different gods is beyond me.
nothing about alawites here, but: you know Arab christians call god Allah, right?
Also Allah is literally "The God" in arabic.
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Helgoland

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #987 on: February 15, 2016, 06:27:42 pm »

I think I need to talk a local priest into going 'Allahu akbar!' during mass now. Y'know, to make the Christian refugees feel at home and suchlike.
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Strife26

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #988 on: February 15, 2016, 09:15:59 pm »

Jews speaking Arabic call God Allah.

That's one of the major warning signs for a poor or poorly researched argument.

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Helgoland

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #989 on: February 15, 2016, 09:26:25 pm »

Oh, I know, I know. I just wanna annoy the shit out of angsty old folks.
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The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.
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