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[smjjames]

It'd be nice if Muslims would lead during a crisis like this, instead of everyone turning to us where we inevitably please no one, foreign or domestic.

But the informed side of me knows that it's more complicated than that and any real involvement by Muslim  nations runs the risk of it becoming another holy war within Islam on a mass scale.

Still. Iraq is surrounded by how many Muslim countries? that should be even more horrified than we are at what's happening.

Yeah, but that's sort of like saying "Well, this whole Protestant vs. Catholic thing is getting ugly, so we'd better let somebody else help settle it. Maybe the Ottomans. Otherwise things could messy on a large scale."

If Islam needs to have an internal holy war to settle this (and hopefully move beyond into a Muslim Enlightenment, where newer, younger theologians synthesize Quranic verse and hadiths with modern thinking) then it might be best to just get it over with it. And it needs to be an internal thing, for legitimacy of the winning side when the dust settles.

Maybe it does need it's own version of the Reformation, not neccesarily towards more religious, just the internal shakeup and the re-interpretations. Actually, you know what, maybe reformation would be the wrong term, but it could use a shakeup and some sort of uplift into modern thinking.

Was the Reformation and European religous wars equivalent to a holy war in the way you're saying it?

[nenjin]

I'd have to pass on answering that without re-reading what I know. Religious wars suck, period, so there's no real getting around it either way. I guess I'm not hopeful that enough blood could be shed to "solve" the overarching Shia / Sunni conflict. I'd say it's probably just a justification for good old fashioned conquest, but at least American media reports it as targeted so I'm not always so sure about that. But at the very least, a group like ISIS running rampant across another Arab countries should concern other Arab countries. It'll just turn into another Syria, which is still going on and a full-blown holy war in Iraq would spill across their borders too. I'd think it'd be in their best interests to do, well, more than nothing about it.

[smjjames]

@nenjin: Fair enough.

I know, how about a muslim who has one parent Shiia and the other Sunni? Just a random thought and I know the Sunni-Shiia split is deeper than the Catholic-Orthodox split. Not that the Catholic-Orthodox split wasn't a major split.

And no, I don't know of any muslims who have one parent Shiia and the other Sunni.

[Duuvian]

If Islam needs to have an internal holy war to settle this (and hopefully move beyond into a Muslim Enlightenment, where newer, younger theologians synthesize Quranic verse and hadiths with modern thinking) then it might be best to just get it over with it. And it needs to be an internal thing, for legitimacy of the winning side when the dust settles.

I think that this Enlightenment is very possible to see within my lifetime. I don't think it necessarily has to be through war either, though I will not be the one to choose. I think that the ascension to power both religious and secular of a generation that has had access to the internet their whole life and who are willing to jihad against ignorance but not against their fellow man will be the key. I think ISIS and other radical groups know this too and have taken the initiative to do what they can prevent this course while there are still enough people willing to fight for them. I also believe some dictators or would be dictators share this fear of change but that is a different matter from ISIS for I think they fear a loss of their decadence rather than religious moderation.

ISIS executed the second reporter that has been in the news. I think the destruction of ISIS will come both from above and from brave people on the ground for anything less risks the coming of a new age of enlightenment for people that deserve it as much as any other and fades the hope for long term peace, merciful justice, tolerance and prosperity that should rightfully come with it.

[Strife26]

That's a helluva noble sentiment, Duuvian. There's going to be a lot of blood and casings on the sand before we see that particular age.

[Phmcw]

That's a helluva noble sentiment, Duuvian. There's going to be a lot of blood and casings on the sand before we see that particular age.

I don't think america's military know how many it would take. If you want to know though, look how colonial Europe used to end those rebellions.

When we  said, "don't go in Irak", it wasn't out of love for Hussein.

[Lagslayer]

reluctantly posting to watch

[10ebbor10]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-future-of-terrorism-what-al-qaida-really-wants-a-369448.html

Relevant

[Zangi]

The other option is to let it form and then watch as it engages Iran in a fight to the death. Either way, we wind up with one threat neutralized and the other severely weakened. (yay realpolitik)

Iran wasn't a threat in the first place until we fucked around with them.

Even more reason to stop fucking with ISIS then, wouldn't you say?

What if they somehow manage to form a temporarily alliance "against the US" as their common enemy?

Except they are not even going to ignore each other.  ISIS seeks to dispose of Assad in Syria, one of the only allies of Iran.  There is also the religious differences between ISIS and Iran, Sunni/Shia... what with ISIS being on the extreme end of its religious ideology.  Conflict will happen sooner or later between the two, if not now... with Iran having less support to fight ISIS off if they just ignore ISIS now and they succeed at disposing of Assad.

If Islam needs to have an internal holy war to settle this (and hopefully move beyond into a Muslim Enlightenment, where newer, younger theologians synthesize Quranic verse and hadiths with modern thinking) then it might be best to just get it over with it. And it needs to be an internal thing, for legitimacy of the winning side when the dust settles.

I think that this Enlightenment is very possible to see within my lifetime. I don't think it necessarily has to be through war either, though I will not be the one to choose. I think that the ascension to power both religious and secular of a generation that has had access to the internet their whole life and who are willing to jihad against ignorance but not against their fellow man will be the key. I think ISIS and other radical groups know this too and have taken the initiative to do what they can prevent this course while there are still enough people willing to fight for them. I also believe some dictators or would be dictators share this fear of change but that is a different matter from ISIS for I think they fear a loss of their decadence rather than religious moderation.

This seems like high fantasy in my opinion.  You need those new younger theologians to... actually be out there in the middle east with their own congregations in significant enough numbers.  And not be killed for it, plus having the right influential people...  Most importantly, they have to agree on the finer details.  (Kinda like a heresy... in CK2 terms...)

[XXSockXX]

If Islam needs to have an internal holy war to settle this (and hopefully move beyond into a Muslim Enlightenment, where newer, younger theologians synthesize Quranic verse and hadiths with modern thinking) then it might be best to just get it over with it. And it needs to be an internal thing, for legitimacy of the winning side when the dust settles.

I think that this Enlightenment is very possible to see within my lifetime. I don't think it necessarily has to be through war either, though I will not be the one to choose. I think that the ascension to power both religious and secular of a generation that has had access to the internet their whole life and who are willing to jihad against ignorance but not against their fellow man will be the key. I think ISIS and other radical groups know this too and have taken the initiative to do what they can prevent this course while there are still enough people willing to fight for them. I also believe some dictators or would be dictators share this fear of change but that is a different matter from ISIS for I think they fear a loss of their decadence rather than religious moderation.

This seems like high fantasy in my opinion.  You need those new younger theologians to... actually be out there in the middle east with their own congregations in significant enough numbers.  And not be killed for it, plus having the right influential people...  Most importantly, they have to agree on the finer details.  (Kinda like a heresy... in CK2 terms...)

I agree, this talk about an Islamic Reformation or Enlightenment is not very realistic. Despite the similarities, Islam and Christianity are very different, with different structures, history etc. The Reformation and the Enlightenment were very specific developments that only make sense within their time and context (the strongly centralised Catholic Church specifically), they are not something that can happen in completely different religions like that.

There is a sort of "modern"/liberal moderate Islam already, even in the Middle East, maybe it's just not that visible to us outsiders. I read an article (in German) about Lebanese TV satire directed at ISIS. (Now Lebanon is/was relatively westernized, but still.) Some of it reads like it's quite funny, like a piece about a taxi driver losing patience with an islamist who complains about music, cellphones and other heresies, until he's told to get out of the car and get a camel.

[martinuzz]

Apparently IS is airborne now. Pictures were posted on the internet this weekend (I am sorry, dutch newspaper did not provide a link this time), of IS forces climbing into military aircraft captured from the Syrian airforce.

This could get nasty if they got their hands on long range bombers. Perhaps a few pre-emptive nuclear strikes are in order.

[burningpet]

Yeah i have seen reports of them trying to lure in pilots from egypt/yemen/libya by offering much higher salaries. they are also forcing captured syrian pilots to train their own people.

Aircrafts are very important in the modern battlefield, and no doubt ISIS could have a significant advantage over hezbulla, the pashmerge and other syrian rebel groups using them, but they would probably prove quite an easy pray for American/Israeli pilots. they don't have the other technologies that usually surrounding an air force to pose a serious threat on other armies (Satellites, Electronic warfare, etc..).

I have seen some conflicting reports on the numbers of ISIS combatants, placing them in the range of 10K-30K around a month ago and its a figure a lot of people still use. however, the wikipedia article has since been updated to reflect around 80K-100K and that's a far more realistic figure. one of ISIS recruiting guys said in an interview that now days, they recruit around 500 people a day.

Estimates said around 1500-3000 foreigners, around 1-2 months ago, yet, this figure is still being used today. i believe this is a watered down figure and that the real numbers are far higher.

It appears that the terror attack in brussels was conducted by a guy that tortured a french reporter in syria, further strengthening the fear that muslim europeans would go back to europe and commit terror attacks.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nicolas-henin-french-journalist-says-brussels-museum-shooter-tortured-him-in-syria-1.2757839

[Neonivek]

I am going to give props to this thread for not going into pointless bickering even when you disagree.

[Bauglir]

Perhaps a few pre-emptive nuclear strikes are in order.

There is no conceivable situation that could make this the case. No current confirmed nuclear power will ever make a pre-emptive nuclear strike. A retaliatory one is possible, but I can say for the US at least is imaginable only under the most bizarre situation (say, managing to set off a nuke in DC).

[Sergarr]

Apparently IS is airborne now. Pictures were posted on the internet this weekend (I am sorry, dutch newspaper did not provide a link this time), of IS forces climbing into military aircraft captured from the Syrian airforce.

This could get nasty if they got their hands on long range bombers. Perhaps a few pre-emptive nuclear strikes are in order.

Does Syria even have long range bombers?