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Author Topic: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.  (Read 204160 times)

scriver

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #135 on: August 14, 2014, 05:11:05 pm »
Quote from: smjjames on August 14, 2014, 02:45:16 pm
Plus you kept dodging my question on how you think we can help 'for real'.

No, he didn't. He stated early on that he wasn't going to play "armchair general" and speculate about military strategy.
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smjjames

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #136 on: August 14, 2014, 05:22:11 pm »
Quote from: scriver on August 14, 2014, 05:11:05 pm
Quote from: smjjames on August 14, 2014, 02:45:16 pm
Plus you kept dodging my question on how you think we can help 'for real'.

No, he didn't. He stated early on that he wasn't going to play "armchair general" and speculate about military strategy.

I was trying to understand his idea of helping 'for real', but if he doesn't want to speculate military strategy, okay.
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Ai Shizuka

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #137 on: August 15, 2014, 05:46:56 pm »
I've re-read my own replies and realized I should add a bit of explanation.
I said the US are not doing enough.
I also said the US could reasonably be expected to do more, after the bombastic speech delivered by your president.
But I admit I don't know how 'more' could concretely be achieved. Because it's not my job. You have plenty of mediocre generals to define a working plan.

The point is, we (we non-US westerners) know what the US are capable of, when you really mean business. We know the amount of resources and effort you can dedicate to a plan.
Countries get bombed. Dictators are killed. You generally can fuck up entire countries. You DO fuck up entire countries, when it's the profitable thing to do.
This time, we got a very inspiring speech, but little to nothing afterwards.

No promises, no expectations. Big promises, big expectations.
After Obama's words, any reasonable spectator could have expected the Yazidi refugees to be picked up and dropped somewhere safe, be it with helicopters, trucks, unicorns.
Instead, we got a few thousands who escaped on their own, mostly to Syrian refugee camps (big progress, really).
Now ISIS is sort of lifting the siege and all the other people are basically scattering around with no directions, mostly to syrian kurdistan.


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smjjames

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #138 on: August 15, 2014, 08:30:09 pm »
(Not sure if you're ignoring me now or not, but I'm just saying sorry for yelling at you earlier. I was getting frustrated since you didn't seem to understand or I have no idea. However, that whole thing is dropped and moving on)

Well, not to play 'armchair general here' the situation on the ground is complex and there is only so much that we can do without boots on the ground (that is, combat infantry and tanks). The US was also not the only one airdropping stuff there, but yeah, I agree more could have been done.

Now that Al-Maliki has stepped down, hopefully whoever replaces him will be able to unite the Sunnis, Shiias, and Kurds. Though the Kurds are going to go full blown independent state at this rate.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #139 on: August 16, 2014, 03:42:50 am »
The Kurds going full blown independent state would probably be a good thing, in any case. Iraq is an "arbitrary country" formed by Britain drawing lines in the dirt that ignored cultural boundaries. As Strife has pointed out, Iraqis do not consider themselves Iraqi, they are Sunni, Shiite, Kurdish etc... Giving the Kurds a nation state of their own instead of the de facto one they currently have would go some tiny way to improve the situation in that part of the world.
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Strife26

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #140 on: August 16, 2014, 09:06:04 am »
I'd be fully behind Kurdistan, but it's got the serious problem of a good chunk of what would belong in Kurdistan currently being part of Turkey. And Turkey is both a generally stable nation state and part of NATO.
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smjjames

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #141 on: August 16, 2014, 09:32:47 am »
Turkey seems willing to work with an independent Kurdistan though, so maybe something can be worked out?

I should mention that theres also a good chunk of Syria that would belong to Kurdistan as well. Not sure if Kurdistan would extend into Iran, but it'd be a pretty small chunk.
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Sergarr

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #142 on: August 16, 2014, 09:44:42 am »
Do note that creating new states and rewriting borders is against the United Nations law.

Not that anyone actually cares about UN any longer...
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Baffler

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #143 on: August 16, 2014, 09:48:26 am »


This is what Kurdistan would look like, if they got every square inch of disputed territory. Note the two turkish enclaves if this were to be the case. It extends into Turkey and Iran, mostly. Parts of northern Syria and Iraq are also included.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 09:50:53 am by Baffler »
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10ebbor10

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #144 on: August 16, 2014, 09:56:16 am »
I see 3 Turkish enclaves. There's a small one near Armenia as well.

On a side note, I don't think realizing an independent Kurdistan in Iran is a very feasible option.
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smjjames

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #145 on: August 16, 2014, 10:05:15 am »
Never mind that being a small chunk then.

Also, I see three exclaves (which is the correct term actually), a tiny one by Armenia and the two by Syria.

There might actually be a tiny sliver of an enclave of Turkey along that 'arm'.

I don't think Iran has given any reaction to Kurdistan or said they are willing to cooperate with them AFAIK. Seriously doubt they'd give any of their territory either.

Regarding 'arbitrary countries', what about Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, and the others?

Quote from: Sergarr on August 16, 2014, 09:44:42 am
Do note that creating new states and rewriting borders is against the United Nations law.

Not that anyone actually cares about UN any longer...

Uh, Kosovo, South Sudan, East Timor. I'm sure the UN allows for independence movements.
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burningpet

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #146 on: August 16, 2014, 11:18:57 am »
Quote from: 10ebbor10 on August 16, 2014, 09:56:16 am
On a side note, I don't think realizing an independent Kurdistan in Iran is a very feasible option.

As unlikely as realizing an independent kurdistan in turkey.
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Duuvian

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #147 on: August 16, 2014, 06:21:11 pm »
Nearly 2000 people missing, likely abducted and the males possibly executed. Mostly civilians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/islamic-state-group-executes-700-syria-2014816123945662121.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/rebels-ask-iraq-style-strikes-syria-201481614319736346.html

Once again I would like to voice my support for intervention.
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Sergarr

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #148 on: August 17, 2014, 04:48:04 am »
Intervention of this sort would have to work with Assad, and last time I checked, West has proclaimed him a part of Axis of Evil, along with Putin and Qaddafi.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: The Let's go back to Iraq, now without WMDs Thread. About the IS(IS) threat.
« Reply #149 on: August 17, 2014, 06:26:24 am »
they're getting a lot of mileage out of that axis

did anyone ever chart up who was part of it at what times
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