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Author Topic: Armchair General General - /AGG  (Read 140033 times)

Baffler

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #585 on: March 09, 2016, 01:54:43 am »

No it doesn't. You don't just stop maneuvering when you locate the enemy. You try to outmaneuver him. Flank him or surround him or cut him off.
Notably in the conflicts within Iraq and Syria, due to all the mobile major firepower having been blown up, when two groups met at a town they'd just stop and wait until someone brought in a truck bomb/air strike on the fortified town. Helps to have artillery round about then, unless that artillery just becomes an airstrike magnet

I wonder if any modern conflict has ever had a deliberately obvious artillery battery defended by hidden fighters or ground AA for the express purpose of baiting enemy aircraft into the area to get shot down.
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Sheb

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #586 on: March 09, 2016, 02:52:54 am »

I love how everyone is going "no, modern warfare doesn't look like this, it look like this" while referencing totally theoretical wars between major militaries as if they were real.
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Parsely

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #587 on: March 09, 2016, 03:09:21 am »

I love how everyone is going "no, modern warfare doesn't look like this, it look like this" while referencing totally theoretical wars between major militaries as if they were real.
The last time two superpowers fought was in World War 2, so yeah. It remains a hypothetical discussion. Isn't that what this thread is for?
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Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #588 on: March 09, 2016, 03:26:46 am »

I love how everyone is going "no, modern warfare doesn't look like this, it look like this" while referencing totally theoretical wars between major militaries as if they were real.
I referenced the totally factual wars between major and minor militaries. Totally different!
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Sheb

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #589 on: March 09, 2016, 03:34:41 am »

Sure, thinking of hyptohetical war is what this thread is for, but I love seeing people making grand statement "Moder war is mobility" as if it was established truth while the fact is, we don't really know what a war between modern armies would look like. (Especially since it probablt depend a lot on how much each side is pulling his punches).
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Erkki

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #590 on: March 09, 2016, 03:47:33 am »

This is true. However, an attacking force(the enemy) does not usually spend hours preparing defensive positions.
Modern war is a war of mobility. Especially on offensive. You move and hide to avoid artillery  (unless you are speaking about that weird Ukrainian-Russian war that looks like unholy mix of WW1,WW2,cold war era conflicts and spec ops playing counter-strike in the real life)
That movement also stops when it meets defenders or another obstacle.
No it doesn't. You don't just stop maneuvering when you locate the enemy. You try to outmaneuver him. Flank him or surround him or cut him off.

If it only worked all the time. Also, cutting off a unit may not have immediate effect on its abilities.

A possible scenario: a mechanized platoon advances on road and suddenly meets defenders. Terrain: woodland, average visibility 200 meters, more near the road. There arent many defenders, its just a delay action, but they have mines, mortars and AT weapons. The lead recon squad of 2 BTRs is let through before its destroyed and the first elements of the main body come under fire. The width of the attacking formation in a space limited by water and difficult terrain is 900 meters. The formation stops, engages, and notices it cant just push through easily. Another vehicle is lost. This has taken 3 minutes. It takes a minute to pass the information up the command chain. Another minute or two for the HQ to orient and make a decision, and another minute for the order to disengage, regroup and flank using the difficult terrain together with a formation behind, while artillery and/or air units are called to fix the enemy, to be received. Just disengaging may take more than a minute.

From somewhere around the 2 min mark they can expect an artillery barrage on their heads from a unit that was already prepared for fire missions to this location, 2 to 3 minutes longer if the artillery needs to move from cover to firing stations first. Likewise, this attacking unit may have its own support in similar readiness, but likely further away. 3 times 18 guns firing twice is brutal at the receiving end even if the hit area covers the targeted enemy unit only partially. 155 mm DM662 airburst shell has 49 submunitions, each with lethal anti-personnel shrapnel range of 10 meters and over 100 mm of steel penetration(on direct hit). HE shells are as a rule rather than exception timed to detonate in the air as well, because the best cones for shrapnel spread are to the sides and below, slightly towards the direction the shell came from.

There are plenty of studies on available on artillery. Using the formula available here, page 9, for semi-hard targets, just the first shots in the situation described above, target area being 900 x 900 meters, would result in statistical probability of each man and armored vehicle(but not MBTs) in the target area to die or become incapacitated at 36% chance. Airburst rocks. P = 1 - e^(-(314*49*18*3)/(900x900))

Modern warfare is indeed about mobility, but also about firepower, and artillery is still very good at delivering the latter. A "defender" is often also able to attack(in qualitatively symmetric warfare), and units no longer form a front but rather mobile fighting "pockets".

EDIT: My math sucks. Its 64%. Assuming just half the shots hit the area, lethality is still 40%. Swapping that airburst dual purpose cluster to HE(wounding radius 25 m) and its 12%, and more in wooded terrain as shells splashing against trees actually increases their effect. Let the HE shells explode in ground contact only and it drops to mere 2% or even less if the fuse has a delay.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 05:14:01 am by Erkki »
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Kot

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #591 on: June 25, 2016, 04:06:34 pm »

Spoiler: ITT: Fuck pikemen. (click to show/hide)
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Parsely

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #592 on: June 25, 2016, 04:20:39 pm »

Shoots Kot with his arquebus.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #593 on: June 25, 2016, 04:26:31 pm »

The massed pike was a deterrent to a cavalry charge - not a weapon to actively negate it. Sure, a horseman could have a lance long enough to stab at a pikeman before retaliatory stab, but would still be on a galloping horse hurtling into a wall of many more stabby things, rendering the charge futile.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 04:29:28 pm by MonkeyHead »
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Parsely

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #594 on: June 25, 2016, 04:56:35 pm »

Indeed. Actual cavalry would never ride into a block of infantry that was holding their ground no matter how they were armed, unless you're playing Total War, for a few reasons.

1. Only a very disciplined horse could be convinced to ride into a large mass of people.
2. The sheer amount of casualties you would incur would not be worth it. Ramming your horse into a few ranks of people holding weapons is a good way to separate a you from your horse and/or get both of you killed.

You might break the enemy's formation by doing something so utterly insane, it would surely cause much chaos, but you've also given up all of the advantages that come with being cavalry by bogging yourself down in an enemy formation.

Real cavalry who are engaging in a charge would bear down on enemy infantry, hoping that they would get scared and run away, and only if they broke ranks and fled would the cavalry continue charging and start cutting men down. If the enemy held their ground, which was a common enough outcome with professional infantry, the cavalry would instead wheel away and either try again, or wait for other forces to generate a better opportunity.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 04:58:22 pm by GUNINANRUNIN »
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Kot

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #595 on: June 25, 2016, 06:03:34 pm »

Shoots Kot with his arquebus.
Arquebus?
It's fucking Winged Hussars, their armour is known to have survived musket shots easily (IIRC, it was actually tested against pistol shots against close range and it held up, and I remember seeing some armours (especially horse armour) in museums which had been dented by bullets) and there are at least three reports of Hussars surviving direct cannonball hits. During Siege of Smoleńsk one nobleman by the name of Jan Wejher survived a direct hit from Russian cannon and it didin't penetrate his cuirass, which he later donated to Carmelite Monastery in Loretto. Armour of one of men of voivode Aleksander Gosiewski deflected a cannon ball to his side which resulted in severe damage to his arm, but he survived. A hussar named Prusinowski under hetman Jerzy Lubomirski survived a hit which dented his armour so far that one of three eyewitnesses said it was so big he could put his hand in it... and the guy survived.
The massed pike was a deterrent to a cavalry charge - not a weapon to actively negate it. Sure, a horseman could have a lance long enough to stab at a pikeman before retaliatory stab, but would still be on a galloping horse hurtling into a wall of many more stabby things, rendering the charge futile.
Indeed. Actual cavalry would never ride into a block of infantry that was holding their ground no matter how they were armed, unless you're playing Total War, for a few reasons.

1. Only a very disciplined horse could be convinced to ride into a large mass of people.
2. The sheer amount of casualties you would incur would not be worth it. Ramming your horse into a few ranks of people holding weapons is a good way to separate a you from your horse and/or get both of you killed.

You might break the enemy's formation by doing something so utterly insane, it would surely cause much chaos, but you've also given up all of the advantages that come with being cavalry by bogging yourself down in an enemy formation.

Real cavalry who are engaging in a charge would bear down on enemy infantry, hoping that they would get scared and run away, and only if they broke ranks and fled would the cavalry continue charging and start cutting men down. If the enemy held their ground, which was a common enough outcome with professional infantry, the cavalry would instead wheel away and either try again, or wait for other forces to generate a better opportunity.
That is all very true, at least for Western armies of the time. It was and apparently is widely agreed that cavalry couldn't fall on a pike formation, but you all seem to be forgetting that we're talking Winged Hussars here. They literally did what you say they didin't, and they did it with very good results. During Battle of Kircholm, Poles had about 2,600 Winged Hussars against nearly 11,000 Swedish soldiers. Polish Hussars first utterly crushed Swedish cavalry that they tried to stop charges with and then perfomed a charge on wall of Swedish pike and shot.
Poles lost 200 men that day, Swedes lost nearly 8,000 IIRC. And most amazingly, only 13 hussars died, most Polish losses were supporting infantry getting hit by Swedish cannons.
I have read some historical accounts of how they actually fought. Hussar charges started dispersed and by the end they came so close that "their stirrup touched". All their horses and men were specifically trained to not give a single shit about charging into enemy formations. Pikes may have been an nearly unmovable object on battlefield, but Hussars were unstoppable force. Each Hussar is 1,5 ton mass of man and horse going at 70 km/h behind a 6 meter long lance and steel plates, and there were hundreds if not thousands of them. Good luck trying to stop that with a sharpened stick.
Say what you want about Poland and how we are butt monkey of Europe, but those guys haven't lost a battle for 125 years straight. They have won despite odds that sometimes stacked hundred to one (Battle of Hodów, 40,000 against 400 Hussars, and Hussars were on defense).
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Erkki

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #596 on: June 25, 2016, 06:29:09 pm »

You could shoot the horse instead...  ;)
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Kot

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #597 on: June 25, 2016, 06:42:20 pm »

Except the horse is also armoured, and seriously if you think you have a choice where to hit with arquebus or musket then you're proably standing way too close and are already dead.
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Erkki

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #598 on: June 25, 2016, 07:08:19 pm »

I don't believe it was very common to armor the horses too after 16th century or so... By mid 18th century or so cavalry wore no armor because it just wasn't very useful. Expensive and heavy without providing enough protection.

Muskets were/are actually pretty powerful, the typical ball can still penetrate like 40 cm of flesh 50 meters out, even if the fire isn't accurate at all, so a horses vitals are vulnerable from the front. One can find some nice videos on shooting those old blackpowder guns. The kinetic energy of a bullet can be even higher than one from a typical modern day assault rifle. How well that transforms into damage and wound channels within the target differs, musket shot after all is a big, fairly slow ball of lead.
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Kot

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #599 on: June 25, 2016, 07:34:28 pm »

Well... yes. Hussar horses actually weren't armoured except for first line and even in that case it was just a horse breastplate at best, but even then apparently muskets didin't prove to be really that dangerous. There are numerous cases of Hussars charging against lines of guns and it just didin't do shit, though it might be mostly because the maximum range of moderately accurate musket could be around... 200 meters tops? I remember that infantry of the time were actually told to wait with shoot until under 100 meters... which Hussars could cover that in what, 10 seconds? Early guns were also prone to misfires and you have to think about the psychological effect of cavalry actually having balls to charge you.
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Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.
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