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Author Topic: Armchair General General - /AGG  (Read 139939 times)

Arx

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #540 on: March 06, 2016, 02:30:31 pm »

Yeah, but they're out of range of bullets because you have allied infantrymen keeping the enemy out of range. The all-artillery scheme Tack is proposing might work in a few RTS, but is otherwise crap.

You will never persuade me that the trebuchet hammer is an unviable tactic on a modern battlefield.

:P
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Parsely

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #541 on: March 06, 2016, 03:08:09 pm »

Actually it's in reverse - unguided shells are only useful against insurgents, which have insignificant forces and thus are unable to suppress or destroy either the launching devices or the supply lines.

Against a modern opponent, you won't be able to fire much more of unguided munitions than guided ones, before you get your unguided shell storage facilities destroyed by a precise-guided bomb or a drone-fired missile, or get your artillery wrecked by enemy's guided shells landing right on top of your artillery battalions. After that, it's just a matter of time until the rest of your forces is fixed by the enemy's heavy mechanized formations and destroyed completely by unerring deadly fire.

Like, why do you think all modern militaries invest in guided/precise/network-based stuff so hard? It's because it counters everything else. Just like stealth does. That's why Russian military is investing so hard in acquiring all of these things, you know.
You're wrong. Insurgents are very small targets mixed in among things you don't want to destroy. Guided munitions get used way more than unguided munitions in the wars against insurgents.

Not so. The enemy needs eyes on in order to employ guided munitions, and a modern force can actually prevent you from carrying out recce on him, unlike insurgents, who have inadequate AA and QRF capabilities. You forget that in this context the enemy has the same equipment as you do. I don't see how you could manage to locate the enemy's "unguided shell storage" seeing as that's his rear echelon, and he no doubt has many AA assets in that area preventing you from spotting it with air assets, and good luck getting a foot probe in there when he has UAVs equipped with FPR and IR. And if artillery is in range of his rear echelon then he has bigger problems since that means his front line has already been run over by your line units.

They are not invincible assets. Not only are there ways to stop these assets from being put into use (JDAM platforms have a much longer range than artillery which is comparatively short-ranged and cumbersome, but jets can be shot down and thus MUST be employed over space where you have air superiority) there are situations in which it is better to use 30 or 40 unguided rounds over a single expensive guided munition.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 03:09:56 pm by GUNINANRUNIN »
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Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #542 on: March 06, 2016, 03:54:40 pm »

You're wrong. Insurgents are very small targets mixed in among things you don't want to destroy. Guided munitions get used way more than unguided munitions in the wars against insurgents.
The fact "guided munitions get used way more than unguided munitions in the wars against insurgents" doesn't imply "unguided munitions are useful against non-insurgents", so you need a better argument than that to negate my proposition of "unguided munitions are useful only against insurgents".

That fact can, alternatively, very well mean that modern militaries just use more guided munitions than unguided munitions in general, against any opponent, simply because it's more effective to do so.

Not so. The enemy needs eyes on in order to employ guided munitions, and a modern force can actually prevent you from carrying out recce on him, unlike insurgents, who have inadequate AA and QRF capabilities. You forget that in this context the enemy has the same equipment as you do. I don't see how you could manage to locate the enemy's "unguided shell storage" seeing as that's his rear echelon, and he no doubt has many AA assets in that area preventing you from spotting it with air assets, and good luck getting a foot probe in there when he has UAVs equipped with FPR and IR. And if artillery is in range of his rear echelon then he has bigger problems since that means his front line has already been run over by your line units.
1) Ever heard of spy satellites? Can't really hide something as big as a shell storage facility from them - given the large traffic near it, that's required for it to actually function as distributor of unguided shells.

2) If we include stuff like "ballistic/cruise missile launchers" to what we call artillery here (which seems to me to not be incorrect, in the context of "modern militaries fight it out"), then there's literally no "back echelon" in a sense of a "place where enemy's fire cannot reach you". Combine that with satellite detection, and you can bet any large static asset (such as a storage facility for unguided shell - you really need a lot of them to be of even theoretical parity to guided ones!) is going to be as good as dead within the first few hours of conflict.

They are not invincible assets. Not only are there ways to stop these assets from being put into use (JDAM platforms have a much longer range than artillery which is comparatively short-ranged and cumbersome, but jets can be shot down and thus MUST be employed over space where you have air superiority) there are situations in which it is better to use 30 or 40 unguided rounds over a single expensive guided munition.
1) There is no good way to stop these assets from "being put into use". I should clarify, that by "these assets", I mean just stand-off weaponry in general, and as to answer "why there is no good way to stop it", it's notoriously difficult to shoot down incoming small projectiles, and every one that bypasses your defences hits, and hits hard.

Besides, to shoot down a guided projectile, you almost certainly need a guided projectile of your own, and a more capable one, as well, because it has to hit a much smaller and faster target.

2) There are almost no realistic situations where you can expect to fire off 30 or 40 times more of unguided rounds than guided munitions in modern conventional conflict between two modern militaries, since a fired projectile is instantly traced back to its source (thanks to modern counter-battery radars), and you have to relocate almost immediately afterwards or get destroyed.

I shall note that in this counter-battery task, guided munitions are also far more effective than unguided ones, since they can be made to automatically home in on repositioning artillery.
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #543 on: March 06, 2016, 06:15:10 pm »

Fortified targets exist.
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Parsely

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #544 on: March 06, 2016, 07:25:56 pm »

The fact "guided munitions get used way more than unguided munitions in the wars against insurgents" doesn't imply "unguided munitions are useful against non-insurgents", so you need a better argument than that to negate my proposition of "unguided munitions are useful only against insurgents".

That fact can, alternatively, very well mean that modern militaries just use more guided munitions than unguided munitions in general, against any opponent, simply because it's more effective to do so.

1) Ever heard of spy satellites? Can't really hide something as big as a shell storage facility from them - given the large traffic near it, that's required for it to actually function as distributor of unguided shells.

2) If we include stuff like "ballistic/cruise missile launchers" to what we call artillery here (which seems to me to not be incorrect, in the context of "modern militaries fight it out"), then there's literally no "back echelon" in a sense of a "place where enemy's fire cannot reach you". Combine that with satellite detection, and you can bet any large static asset (such as a storage facility for unguided shell - you really need a lot of them to be of even theoretical parity to guided ones!) is going to be as good as dead within the first few hours of conflict.

1) There is no good way to stop these assets from "being put into use". I should clarify, that by "these assets", I mean just stand-off weaponry in general, and as to answer "why there is no good way to stop it", it's notoriously difficult to shoot down incoming small projectiles, and every one that bypasses your defences hits, and hits hard.

Besides, to shoot down a guided projectile, you almost certainly need a guided projectile of your own, and a more capable one, as well, because it has to hit a much smaller and faster target.

2) There are almost no realistic situations where you can expect to fire off 30 or 40 times more of unguided rounds than guided munitions in modern conventional conflict between two modern militaries, since a fired projectile is instantly traced back to its source (thanks to modern counter-battery radars), and you have to relocate almost immediately afterwards or get destroyed.

I shall note that in this counter-battery task, guided munitions are also far more effective than unguided ones, since they can be made to automatically home in on repositioning artillery.
Yes it does. The tools for dealing with that kind of conflict are obviously there because they are ideal for the situations they're employed in, no? Unguided munitions can be used to great effect against large formations of units in open ground where accuracy isn't an issue. I already mentioned this. The cost is also a very important factor to consider alongside the actual result, something that you seem to be ignoring.

The modern military can afford to use more guided than unguided munitions today because their enemies are few in number and concentrated in small areas surrounded by people and buildings you don't want to destroy.

The simple fact is that spy satellites are too valuable to be diverted for tactical and operational intelligence gathering. They're busy with jobs bigger than locating one storage area. But now it sounds like you're talking about a home front factory rather than a forward supply dump just behind the front lines. Not to mention anti-satellite missiles are a thing. Satellites will be shot down in a war between developed nations.

Anti-missile missiles are a thing. As for artillery, there are lasers today that can shoot down mortar shells but nothing that has really been battle tested. But heck maybe ten years down the line you'll need to mass your fire to break through an enemy's point defenses. That's not really relevant though since we're talking facts.

Missiles can be shot down, the planes that carry laser-guided bombs can be shot down, artillery can be defeated via a strong front line and good maneuvering. This is where infantry come into their own. They can be too numerous and too low-value to be worth shelling with guided munitions, which is where unguided weapons come in.

This field isn't shrouded in mystery. There are anti-missile systems all over the world that have proved effectiveness at shooting down ballistic missiles.

They're more accurate, but only if you have eyes on the target, but not always more effective if the alternative is firing lots of cheaper ammo with the same payload. Saving money is a big part of a winning a war.
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Tack

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #545 on: March 06, 2016, 08:32:09 pm »

Fortified targets exist.
For those, we developed the Massive Ordinance Penetrator.
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #546 on: March 06, 2016, 08:42:23 pm »

So blow up a million dollar bunker with a fifteen million dollar bomb?
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Parsely

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #547 on: March 06, 2016, 08:47:02 pm »

So blow up a million dollar bunker with a fifteen million dollar bomb?
If it's stopping millions of dollars worth of troops from advancing and you're sure the plane isn't going to get shot down, yes.
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #548 on: March 06, 2016, 08:57:09 pm »

And when the enemy makes 16 such bunkers and you have 15 such bombs in the world?
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Parsely

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #549 on: March 06, 2016, 08:58:21 pm »

And when the enemy makes 16 such bunkers and you have 15 such bombs in the world?
Destroy one bunker and bypass the rest. They are fixed positions. Cut the other bunkers off from their supplies or attack them from multiple sides if time is important. Force them to surrender.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 09:00:35 pm by GUNINANRUNIN »
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #550 on: March 06, 2016, 09:30:27 pm »

Cut the other bunkers off from their supplies or attack them from multiple sides if time is important.

Geee, that sure sounds like something unguided munitions would be useful for.
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Sheb

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #551 on: March 07, 2016, 02:36:38 am »

You have plenty of bunker-buster that are smaller than a MOP.
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Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #552 on: March 07, 2016, 08:24:03 am »

Yes it does. The tools for dealing with that kind of conflict are obviously there because they are ideal for the situations they're employed in, no? Unguided munitions can be used to great effect against large formations of units in open ground where accuracy isn't an issue. I already mentioned this. The cost is also a very important factor to consider alongside the actual result, something that you seem to be ignoring.
Cost doesn't seem to be a limiting factor for modern armies. If it was, they wouldn't be firing PGMs to blow up ISIS excavators every 2-3 days.

The modern military can afford to use more guided than unguided munitions today because their enemies are few in number and concentrated in small areas surrounded by people and buildings you don't want to destroy.
Modern militaries themselves are usually "few in number". An order-of-magnitude larger than what insurgents usually bring, sure, but a modern military losing 10% of its assets could lose most of its fighting capability, if you choose and hit the right targets. That is, they're more vulnerable to being reduced in combat capacity than insurgents, who can just replace their losses cheap and fast.

The simple fact is that spy satellites are too valuable to be diverted for tactical and operational intelligence gathering. They're busy with jobs bigger than locating one storage area. But now it sounds like you're talking about a home front factory rather than a forward supply dump just behind the front lines. Not to mention anti-satellite missiles are a thing. Satellites will be shot down in a war between developed nations.
No one will actually shoot down any satellites, not until the "total war" stage, which will never happen. It's just too risky to do that, too much and you may block the space for everyone due to Kessler syndrome.

Anti-missile missiles are a thing. As for artillery, there are lasers today that can shoot down mortar shells but nothing that has really been battle tested. But heck maybe ten years down the line you'll need to mass your fire to break through an enemy's point defenses. That's not really relevant though since we're talking facts.
Anti-missile missiles are guided munitions by definition, so you're actually supporting my point of view here. As for "massing your fire", that's not going to become an issue - because unguided munitions are, by definition, moving on ballistic trajectory - and thus are infinitely easier to shoot down than a ground-hugging hyper-sonic cruise missile - which is a guided munition. So again, guided munitions rule, unguided munitions drool.

Missiles can be shot down, the planes that carry laser-guided bombs can be shot down, artillery can be defeated via a strong front line and good maneuvering. This is where infantry come into their own. They can be too numerous and too low-value to be worth shelling with guided munitions, which is where unguided weapons come in.
Missiles are not cost-ineffective to shoot down, because the attacker has an advantage of being able to choose where they strike, and you're not going to be able to protect everything you need to protect if your country is bigger than Estonia. With planes, F-35 are Low Observable, which makes "shoot them down" a very difficult task, especially since they can also choose where they strike and thus go around your defences.

As for infantry, I can say that, if enemy's reduced to low-value infantry, he's effectively already defeated and it doesn't matter what weapon you choose to finish them off. Unguided munitions could be useful in this case, of course, but you could do the same with tank shells and IFV's autocannons, i.e. non-artillery assets, that could, in addition to doing the task of artillery, also able to advance into enemy's territory.

(also, "strong front-line"? WW2 was more than half a century ago, modern warfare doesn't have "front-lines" in the usual sense of that word)


This field isn't shrouded in mystery. There are anti-missile systems all over the world that have proved effectiveness at shooting down ballistic missiles.
Last time I checked, their maximum "effectiveness" was "intercept of 30% of missiles". Not quite enough.

They're more accurate, but only if you have eyes on the target, but not always more effective if the alternative is firing lots of cheaper ammo with the same payload. Saving money is a big part of a winning a war.
And I say that you'll save much more money if you fire guided munitions than unguided ones, because you will be able to destroy enemy assets faster and as a result, prevent enemy from destroying your assets. Quality wins over quantity, all modern conflicts have shown that. With quality, you save more people and equipment of your own in every fire exchange, and it all adds up, big time.

Fortified targets exist.
Blowing up the entrance in a right way will make them useless for any logistical purpose. Of course, that would be quite difficult to do with unguided munitions - but with guided ones, it's much easier. And of course, there could be other weak spots, as well.

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you know there's some irony in Russian arguing against an American that guided weapons are better than unguided ones
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Parsely

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #553 on: March 07, 2016, 08:26:35 am »

You have plenty of bunker-buster that are smaller than a MOP.
Yep. Had to assume the "bunkers" being talked about were being destroyed as efficiently as possible, since, I mean, ground-bursting nuclear weapons are also "bunker busters". The problem with these hypotheticals is that they don't take into account all of the many facets of modern war. There are a lot of moving parts to consider.
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #554 on: March 07, 2016, 09:07:54 am »

As for infantry, I can say that, if enemy's reduced to low-value infantry, he's effectively already defeated and it doesn't matter what weapon you choose to finish them off. Unguided munitions could be useful in this case, of course, but you could do the same with tank shells and IFV's autocannons, i.e. non-artillery assets, that could, in addition to doing the task of artillery, also able to advance into enemy's territory.

Cool, so it seems to me like you and guninanrunin agree about more then you thought you agreed about.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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