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Author Topic: Armchair General General - /AGG  (Read 139911 times)

EnigmaticHat

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #75 on: August 06, 2014, 02:06:37 am »

Good to see the US is succeeding in its continuing quest to be able to fight the entire rest of the world at the same time.
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Phmcw

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2014, 06:20:30 am »

I really don't see how air superiority would help : the allies would stand no chance on the ground, fielding bad ttanks like the sherman against soviet IS, and having to stretch their supply lines across the atlantic. Worst, communism was popular in all allied countries, and the sovietic would have had extensive help from resistance network. Bombing Russia would be impossible because there is was no ground base to bob it from, and Stalin would havee had the western European population to make new soldiers.

In my opinion, the best proof that my reasoning is correct is that the west surrendered half of Europe to appease Stalin. They knew that a war against the USSR would have been incredibly risky.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2014, 07:01:15 am »

I propose a kickstarter campaign to buy Netherlands a tank.
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martinuzz

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2014, 07:11:11 am »

I propose a kickstarter campaign to buy Netherlands a tank.

I don't think our groundforces can spare the manpower to crew it.
IMO strategically the best thing the Netherlands could do is focus on drones. Small country, small planes. Make use of all those unemployed people that have trained their piloting skills online, gaming. Just make them believe it's a new free to play, they won't even know they're killing people.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 07:14:35 am by martinuzz »
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2014, 07:50:34 am »

I really don't see how air superiority would help : the allies would stand no chance on the ground, fielding bad ttanks like the sherman against soviet IS,

Lol yeah because heavy tanks were so important in the course of a world war.

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Phmcw

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2014, 08:32:45 am »

Quote
Lol yeah because heavy tanks were so important in the course of a world war.

Well, in world war 2 you may have heard of blitzkrieg. It had some success.
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Strife26

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2014, 08:47:20 am »

Quote
Lol yeah because heavy tanks were so important in the course of a world war.

Well, in world war 2 you may have heard of blitzkrieg. It had some success.

The Pershing, just at the point of being deployed when the war ended would have been more than a equal, especially with its teething problems dealt with on a combat basis instead of a piecetime replacement one.


And besides, the M26 is one of the sexiest looking tanks around.
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Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2014, 09:30:45 am »

I thought USSR actually had decent anti-air forces, including air superiority fighters, at the end of WW2? If so, then how will the allies manage to sneak in a nuke into Moscow, or other production centers? The only reason why Allies were able to nuke Japan with 1 bomber at a time is because the Japan at that moment lacked any anti-air capability.
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2014, 09:32:12 am »

Quote
Lol yeah because heavy tanks were so important in the course of a world war.

Well, in world war 2 you may have heard of blitzkrieg. It had some success.

Blitzkreig with heavy tanks?  Tell me more.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #84 on: August 06, 2014, 09:40:47 am »

Quote
Lol yeah because heavy tanks were so important in the course of a world war.

Well, in world war 2 you may have heard of blitzkrieg. It had some success.
Fun fact: the most used tank in Blitzkrieg was Panzer II, which was armed with 20mm main turret and one 7.92mm machine-gun. Also ~30mm of armor. Yeah.

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Mech#4

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #85 on: August 06, 2014, 09:46:53 am »

Wouldn't that be because the main role of a tank is infantry support rather than other shooting other tanks. They're not really designed to go head to head with other tanks, rather they break enemy infantry. Tank destroyers are for VS other tanks, and even than at long range. The armours more a "In case you get hit you might not die" rather than "tank all the shells.".
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #86 on: August 06, 2014, 09:58:35 am »

Wouldn't that be because the main role of a tank is infantry support rather than other shooting other tanks. They're not really designed to go head to head with other tanks, rather they break enemy infantry. Tank destroyers are for VS other tanks, and even than at long range. The armours more a "In case you get hit you might not die" rather than "tank all the shells.".

Well the US had that theory but decided around 1943 that tank destroyers ended up getting used a lot like tanks were.  They used the M4 chasis, just had a different gun and no top on the turret.  The result of this change was they put a 76mm in the standard M4; this was an updated version of the 3 inch that they had been using in the M10 (their main tank destroyer) and phased out M10 and M18 production, although they did do a limited run of a tank destroyer with a 90mm.

The big threat to tanks in the west on both sides was stationary AT guns (except the Panther, about half of which were lost to breakdowns).  Other AFVs were a secondary threat, about equal to landmines and infantry weapons.  Planes, interestingly were pretty low on the list even for Germans operating in the face of overwhelming allied air superiority.

A big problem with armor is that tank crews generally bailed after the first hit by any big gun, even if they weren't in that much danger.  They didn't know if they were getting hit by a 75mm at 700 yards or a 90mm at 300 yards.  German crews seemed a bit less inclined to bail, possibly due to difficulty, allies tended to lose about 1 man killed for every four tanks "lost" (destroyed or abandoned or later recovered) while with Germans it was like 3 to 4 but that still indicates that a member of a 4 man crew would probably survive a tank loss.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 10:03:41 am by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Culise

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #87 on: August 06, 2014, 10:06:13 am »

I am confused as to why the West needs to fully occupy Russia to secure victory.  Once the border is at Finland, Poland and either Romania or Ukraine they have achieved all their objectives.  Sure the Soviet union would lick it's wounds but it would be doing so as a far, far weaker power.
That assumes that the war starts with that objective in mind.  Many of those who advocated war at this stage did not just want a bunch of border states; they wanted Communism destroyed.  That said, let's say that they manage to restrict themselves, in spite of the severe losses, to their pre-war aims.  The Soviet will know for a fact that it lost its security for the sake of "Western greed", and it will have a severe case of revanchism - all of its gains have been lost, all of its efforts to gain security for its home territories negated by perfidy.  An Allied Finland puts enemy forces kilometres from its second-largest city; an Allied Poland, especially restored to its interwar borders, sits athwart the major corridor into Russian lands while occupying Belarussian and Ukrainian lands; an Allied Ukraine, in the nightmare situation for Soviet leadership, is literally cutting the heart of ancestral Rus out of the country, and more practically seizing its largest breadbasket as well as threatening both its warm water ports south and its access to oil in the Caucasus.  Consider what will be going through the heads of the Soviet leadership after such a war: they allied with Nazi Germany for security, which spontaneously invaded them without any fair cause; they allied with the United States and the United Kingdom for security, which spontaneously invaded them (to their eyes) without any fair cause.  Now, combine this with the fact that in this timeline, nuclear warfare will be considered a regular part of conventional warfare due to the regular use of those American weapons to reduce Soviet war capacity, and with the fact that the Soviet Union will almost certainly have become a nuclear power itself by this point.  That is why it becomes necessary to fully occupy Russia in order to prevent a future war.  Because, if it's not done, you end up with a situation in which a revanchist Soviet Union that has recovered after a decade or two (with commensurate increase in nuclear weapons power) is far, far more willing to launch a nuclear first strike in preemptive self-defense, because it's not paranoia if the world really is out to get you. 

As for the use of air power to blunt pure ground offensives, it's critical to remember that blitzkrieg itself was a combined-arms doctrine.  The use of CAS and similar bombers to reduce fortificative works was a critical component of early German successes against France in particular.  By contrast, failure to prevent the enemy from achieving air superiority (that is, as opposed to even contesting the air) proved critical to the failure of the Battle of the Bulge, which was itself intentionally timed to prevent the Allies from utilizing their superior air power immediately.  Air power will indeed prove critical in blunting the 3:1 advantage of Soviet ground forces over Allied power, but it's actually worth remembering that Operation Unthinkable itself admitted that any failure to achieve total surprise, or to leverage said surprise into actual concrete victories, will result in what was quietly termed a protracted total war.  Any Allied bombing campaign will have to deal with the fact that they're striking targets deep in Soviet territory, against fighters that can actually reach and hammer their bombers (unlike in Japan or late-war Germany, where they could operate with effective impunity) - it can and will happen, but it won't happen with the effectiveness of the 1944-1945 campaigns against a prostrated Germany or Japan. 

Also, here's a fun fact: while the Allied powers had a 3:1 superiority in heavy bombers, it's actually the Soviets who have numerical air superiority in fighters and fighter-bombers, apparently by around 11k planes.  Certainly, the Allied fighters may be superior in quality (though this itself is a questionable assertion, as the Yak-3 was arguably close to, if not the equal of the P-51), but in the near term, it's actually the Soviets who would be able to seize air superiority, a situation that will not change until the loss of Lend-Lease fuel shipments starts to bite into the limited strategic reserves and American production finally ramps up to total war levels.  That's why surprise is so critical to Operation Unthinkable; if the Allies can't achieve decisive successes in the reduction of Soviet forces by winter, they'll be facing down the cream of the Red Army with far lighter forces available to them, and it will be a long and brutal slog East, a cost that will be borne primarily by America and not the other Allies who are largely tapped out in terms of both manpower and fiscal resources.   By the same token, since surprise is critical, they cannot wait for the Pershing or Centurion; they have to go in with the tanks they have, and the newer tanks will only come into play once the war's well underway.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 10:07:45 am by Culise »
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mainiac

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #88 on: August 06, 2014, 10:18:44 am »

Air power will indeed prove critical in blunting the 3:1 advantage of Soviet ground forces over Allied power

The Soviets simply did not have 3:1 superiority in ground forces in 1946.  They had that advantage in number of divisions but Soviet divisions were massively depleted while western divisions were at full strength.

Also, here's a fun fact: while the Allied powers had a 3:1 superiority in heavy bombers, it's actually the Soviets who have numerical air superiority in fighters and fighter-bombers, apparently by around 11k planes.  Certainly, the Allied fighters may be superior in quality (though this itself is a questionable assertion, as the Yak-3 was arguably close to, if not the equal of the P-51), but in the near term, it's actually the Soviets who would be able to seize air superiority

Nope, look at the Germans.  They sent 80% of their fighters west and the allies achieved complete air superiority while they sent 20% of them east and the Germans dive bombers were able to operate much more aggressively and take fewer losses.

The Soviets had some decent late war designs but the allies had better planes and most crucially, better pilots.

The real issue with air superiority isn't close air support (which sure is handy though) but the fact that Soviet logistics are gonna get bombed to hell.  The Germans had a million men on air defense and another million on rebuilding duties.  Where are the Soviets going to find that manpower to spare in their six million man army?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 10:20:58 am by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Sergarr

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Re: Armchair General General - /AGG
« Reply #89 on: August 06, 2014, 10:36:58 am »

They could try to refocus part of their army into anti-air profile from the anti-ground one, because of 2-1 advantage on land...
Also, Allied forces attacking USSR would cause most of Europe to join USSR in a wave of communist revolutions.
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