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Author Topic: Communist Fortress  (Read 10810 times)

wierd

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #90 on: August 09, 2014, 11:11:03 am »

Again, I am not even the least bit hesitant to denounce the track my country (USA) has taken. (see above)

I appreciate the track that Europe has tried to take, with more progressive socialist "middle ground" sod breaking, even though pressures from the agents at work in my home nation are hard at work to cripple them, or compel them into submission via market might.

Europe just needs to not play the US's game, and keep US corporations on a tight leash, and avoid the poison of "free trade agreements". They need to safeguard their prosperity and sovereignty, and enforce restrictions on US foreign policy and corporate expansion, and not play the US's games.

If they can hold them off long enough, the inevitable conclusion of the fallacy of "endless growth" will come to fruition, and this horrible thing we americans have wrought will die of starvation or revolution. (and please, let it happen!) I would very much like to see some place left on the earth where total resource depletion has NOT happened, because of sane policy. Europe looks like a good candidate, if they can keep the UK from screwing everything up by trying to be just like the US, and if they can keep their "Council" under control of parliament.



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Parhelion

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #91 on: August 09, 2014, 11:33:07 am »

Wow, guys, 7 pages of political ankle-biting on the Dwarf Mode discussion forum?  D:

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Samarkand

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #92 on: August 09, 2014, 11:38:08 am »

Wow, guys, 7 pages of political ankle-biting on the Dwarf Mode discussion forum?  D:
Some of it was philosophy. :)
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baj2235

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Samarkand

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #94 on: August 09, 2014, 06:02:58 pm »

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Graknorke

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #95 on: August 09, 2014, 06:34:47 pm »

I'm pretty sure that communism doesn't exclude trading with outside forces. So long as it's the entire fort that's trading it's pooled resources I don't think there should be a problem.
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Baffler

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #96 on: August 09, 2014, 06:41:02 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now I want to run a fortress based on this, but I have no idea how I'd go about it. Mod in a couple positions for business leaders to give to skilled craftsdwarves, maybe? I feel like I would rapidly lose track of what's going on unless I have a small population anyway, but keeping the population small destroys the biggest part of the challenge. I'm certain it'll be more stable than Stalin Fortress, at least.
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BlueSam

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #97 on: August 09, 2014, 08:16:16 pm »

In case anyone's interested:

http://mccaine.org/2013/10/09/dwarf-fortress-a-marxist-analysis/

I found it a great read, and much less silly than it seems.
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Verjigorm

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #98 on: August 10, 2014, 01:14:20 am »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

It's particular to note that we're again, talking about Totalitarianism combined with communism, not just communism.   Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong(the two biggest culprits, quite possibly accounting for half of the killing between them) are notable in that they were states dominated by a single, authoritarian figure.

Denmark, on the other hand, can easily be considered a socialist or communist state, and they have a remarkable lack of mass killings.   

So yeah, what was your point with the link dump?
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Verjigorm

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #99 on: August 10, 2014, 01:45:25 am »

Again, I am not even the least bit hesitant to denounce the track my country (USA) has taken. (see above)

I appreciate the track that Europe has tried to take, with more progressive socialist "middle ground" sod breaking, even though pressures from the agents at work in my home nation are hard at work to cripple them, or compel them into submission via market might.

Europe just needs to not play the US's game, and keep US corporations on a tight leash, and avoid the poison of "free trade agreements". They need to safeguard their prosperity and sovereignty, and enforce restrictions on US foreign policy and corporate expansion, and not play the US's games.

If they can hold them off long enough, the inevitable conclusion of the fallacy of "endless growth" will come to fruition, and this horrible thing we americans have wrought will die of starvation or revolution. (and please, let it happen!) I would very much like to see some place left on the earth where total resource depletion has NOT happened, because of sane policy. Europe looks like a good candidate, if they can keep the UK from screwing everything up by trying to be just like the US, and if they can keep their "Council" under control of parliament.

I wouldn't be so quick to pat Europe on the back(keep in mind, I also find the current US path to a bad thing that needs to be corrected)) as there are a number of problems europe has to face in the next few years, particularly in regards to it's policies regarding immigration.  The French are the biggest example of this, but Europe is not an "inviting" place to immigrants.   The tide of history is too much:  French people, for example, have a three millennial long history, and view the changing demographics of france(more and more non franco-phones and muslims, in particular) with alarm.   There is a great deal of social tension between the natives and immigrants, and unless a change occurs, then we're going to see unrest and violence:  when the conservative French and Germans start to realize that in 50 years, Germany won't be German, but Turkic, there's going to be backlash.

There is also the real issue of decreased American interventions(say what you will about whether we've kept good peace or bad peace, but the threat of the American military has kept Europe at the most peaceful period in it's entire history) resulting in a need for increasesi n european Military expenditure.   Depending on how it's organized(an EU whole military made up of volunteers?   Individual member states contributing to the whole, ala NATO?   It's all up there inthe air), the risk of military confrontation is there.   

We could even see fascism make a big gain in the 20 years.   
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Thormgrim

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #100 on: August 11, 2014, 06:48:49 pm »

I recognize I'm poking a sleeping bear in its cage here but I do find it curious that this conversation seemed to persistently argue the relative merits of a hypothetical, ideal marxist version of communism in comparison to the US version of free markets.

This doesn't seem like a fair, reasonable or illustrative comparison. 

It is not a meaningful exercise unless you consider either actual implementations in the world (US, GB, compared to USSR, Maoist China, etc) or you consider only the possible benefits of each economic philosophy as imagined by their original authors (Smith and Marx).

Otherwise, you are similar to the developer who persistently complains that Linux is superior to Windows.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it's hard to make a reasonable comparison because they have very different modalities in the world and are exposed to different alethea.  Linux has been successful in small populations of dedicated users but has failed to make it to the mass market and efforts to do so have generally been failures.  Windows is generally despised by those who get serious about O/S, but it has also enabled tremendous advancement in the world and its uptake has coincided with broad acceptance of computing.  I doubt the correlation is an accident of history.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
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Samarkand

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #101 on: August 11, 2014, 07:04:47 pm »

I recognize I'm poking a sleeping bear in its cage here but I do find it curious that this conversation seemed to persistently argue the relative merits of a hypothetical, ideal marxist version of communism in comparison to the US version of free markets.

This doesn't seem like a fair, reasonable or illustrative comparison. 

It is not a meaningful exercise unless you consider either actual implementations in the world (US, GB, compared to USSR, Maoist China, etc) or you consider only the possible benefits of each economic philosophy as imagined by their original authors (Smith and Marx).

Otherwise, you are similar to the developer who persistently complains that Linux is superior to Windows.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it's hard to make a reasonable comparison because they have very different modalities in the world and are exposed to different alethea.  Linux has been successful in small populations of dedicated users but has failed to make it to the mass market and efforts to do so have generally been failures.  Windows is generally despised by those who get serious about O/S, but it has also enabled tremendous advancement in the world and its uptake has coincided with broad acceptance of computing.  I doubt the correlation is an accident of history.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
Several comments. First, don't think that's a fair characterization of the thread. People have waffled between theory and practice on both sides. Second, that's a lot of nice metaphors, but it doesn't really enlighten us as to what the theoretical highpoint of capitalism would be, other than that we should read Smith. Third, your metaphors imply that capitalism and communism in practice have had even marginally similar chances to flourish. They didn't hit the scene at similar times, or in similar regions, so comparing practical outcomes is not terribly productive. Capitalism had a huge expanse of fruitful land to expand into. Communism had Siberia. Sort of like if Windows was made here, and Linux was made by a guy trying to redesign the computer while surviving on a deserted island (Note: I'm aware this is hyperbole, trying to make the difference clear).
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wierd

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #102 on: August 11, 2014, 08:45:42 pm »

At the highest level, The basic comparison I had was that both capitalism and communism rely on ideal implementation to flourish as intended; Humans are NOT ideal. This is why both have issues.

There is an axiom that, being a cynical old jerk (and unabashed about being so), I feel is absolutely true.

"Hell is other people"

It does not matter if you try to build a communist paradise, or a capitalist one. People ruin it for other people, because no two people precisely align on what is acceptable, let alone desirable.

Also-- Nitpick:

Capitalism and communism are more market types, not type of government system.

You can have a dictatorship with a capitalist market. (EG, Egypt under Mubarak)
You can have a republic with a capitalist market. (US, many others.)
You can have a true democracy with a capitalist market. (No true democracy exists, but if you could alter humans to make it possible, it could then exist)
You can have pure anarchy, with a capitalist market. (Somalia, Ahoy Maties!)

As Stalin and Mao tried to show, it is theoretically possible for a "Communist" market to exist in a dictatorship. (For varying forms of "communist" True communism excludes the role of dictator from existing. However, if you want to entertain futuristic settings, you could have an unemotional AI construct as the dictator, overseeing perfect distribution of wealth, and assuring eradication of status, and have a dictatorial communist utopia/dystopia [depending on your POV])
It is possible to have a communist market in a republic. (Not quite there, but some european countries are getting damn close)
It is possible to have a communist market in a true democracy. (Again, NO SUCH THING as a true democracy, but if you are going to alter humans to make it possible, might as well go full monty.)
It is (theoretically) possible to have a communist market in total anarchy (Which, ironically, is EXACTLY in line with what Marx envisioned and wrote about as the "ideal", but he did point out that this was not FEASIBLY possible, which is where he then waxes on how a government could exist, and how it should act.)

I hate to harp on that, but Capitalism != Democracy, just like Communism != Totalitarianism.
These lazy conflations are a pet peeve of mine. (Here at home in the 'states, they often are co-morbid with jingoism; dont get me started. Jingoism Never Ends Well)

« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 08:48:43 pm by wierd »
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Samarkand

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #103 on: August 11, 2014, 10:09:10 pm »

There is an axiom that, being a cynical old jerk (and unabashed about being so), I feel is absolutely true.

"Hell is other people"

It does not matter if you try to build a communist paradise, or a capitalist one. People ruin it for other people, because no two people precisely align on what is acceptable, let alone desirable.

Also-- Nitpick:

Capitalism and communism are more market types, not type of government system.

You can have a dictatorship with a capitalist market. (EG, Egypt under Mubarak)
You can have a republic with a capitalist market. (US, many others.)
You can have a true democracy with a capitalist market. (No true democracy exists, but if you could alter humans to make it possible, it could then exist)
You can have pure anarchy, with a capitalist market. (Somalia, Ahoy Maties!)

As Stalin and Mao tried to show, it is theoretically possible for a "Communist" market to exist in a dictatorship. (For varying forms of "communist" True communism excludes the role of dictator from existing. However, if you want to entertain futuristic settings, you could have an unemotional AI construct as the dictator, overseeing perfect distribution of wealth, and assuring eradication of status, and have a dictatorial communist utopia/dystopia [depending on your POV])
It is possible to have a communist market in a republic. (Not quite there, but some european countries are getting damn close)
It is possible to have a communist market in a true democracy. (Again, NO SUCH THING as a true democracy, but if you are going to alter humans to make it possible, might as well go full monty.)
It is (theoretically) possible to have a communist market in total anarchy (Which, ironically, is EXACTLY in line with what Marx envisioned and wrote about as the "ideal", but he did point out that this was not FEASIBLY possible, which is where he then waxes on how a government could exist, and how it should act.)

I hate to harp on that, but Capitalism != Democracy, just like Communism != Totalitarianism.
These lazy conflations are a pet peeve of mine. (Here at home in the 'states, they often are co-morbid with jingoism; dont get me started. Jingoism Never Ends Well)
I agree with your caution towards statements associated with jingoism. Go 'merica. However, I take exception to the fact that you use "Hell is other people" in that way. Mostly because I love existentialist authors, and so I've read Sartre's No Exit. That quote is more about an individual's struggle to understand their meaning in the context of other people's agency. Other people are constantly acting on you, but our conscious best understands us as the only true agents. That aside aside, if the statement were amended to "People suck," I'd agree wholeheartedly.
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baj2235

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #104 on: August 12, 2014, 05:46:14 pm »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

It's particular to note that we're again, talking about Totalitarianism combined with communism, not just communism.   Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong(the two biggest culprits, quite possibly accounting for half of the killing between them) are notable in that they were states dominated by a single, authoritarian figure.

Denmark, on the other hand, can easily be considered a socialist or communist state, and they have a remarkable lack of mass killings.   

So yeah, what was your point with the link dump?

"Denmark has a diverse, mixed economy..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Denmark
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 08:44:12 pm by baj2235 »
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