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Author Topic: Communist Fortress  (Read 10846 times)

lorduberspaz

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2014, 01:56:05 am »

Funny really: everything we hear about communism is through a 100 year propaganda filter. Everything we hear about capitalism similarly defended, but with rich elite's resources to reinforce the message.

Result? Communism dismissed out of hand. Current capitalist model supported despite the blatent deficiencies.

There will be tantrum spirals. There always have been...
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Kumil

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2014, 08:45:02 am »

Dwarf Fortress is already a communist game in essence : You design something that keeps on failing and you try again and again hoping it will work the next time.
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Henny

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2014, 09:21:18 am »

Herein lies the actual crux of the issue with communism.

Humans are NOT wired psychologically for it.  Humans seem to have this intrinsic drive to compete, and gain "status". In a communist setting, (like the REALLY  REAL thing Marx wrote about) there is no room for this. There is no such thing as "Status"-- everyone has equal rights and equal access to resources.

So, to PREVENT people from hoarding resources, and INVENTING something to have status over, ("I have the biggest X!!" / "I have the most Y!" / "My inventions are so much better than HERS, so I'm the ELITE one!" etc) which is often a completely arbitrary thing-- (It's basically what is underneath racism-- something as absurd as skin color used to define status.) a new caste must be created to enforce that equality--- And yes, THIS IS ABSURD. IT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE. (You create a government sanctioned/empowered demographic that really DOES have unequal power and access to resources, for the express action of trying to prevent such a group from forming! ASININE!)
Quote

Quote from: Marx
No social order is ever destroyed before all the productive forces for which it is sufficient have been developed, and new superior relations of production never replace older ones before the material conditions for their existence have matured within the framework of the old society. Mankind thus inevitably sets itself only such tasks as it is able to solve, since closer examination will always show that the problem itself arises only when the material conditions for its solution are already present or at least in the course of formation.
Communism properly understood requires capitalism to have reached its full productive capacity: full automation, robots, 3D printers etc., after which there won't be a need for money or a state or employment etc. This isn't so much possible in a fort.
There is no such thing as "full productive capacity". There is always more. Capitalism is all about never ending expansion.

Except of course, when it physically CAN'T, because resources are NOT infinite.
If only there were mechanisms to prevent this. Well, let's just forget it since the need for an alternative to capitalism isn't pressing or anything.

(The "some people like status" -> "this necessarily means unequal rights and unequal access to resources" -> "a prevention mechanism must necessarily mean a special caste of people" -> "TOTALITARIANISM" is an interesting leap of logic, I admit.)
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2014, 10:01:10 am »

Again, it isn't that "There are no altruistic people"--- That is not the issue at all. There are indeed plenty of altruistic people. Many individual people may well be able to engage in genuine communism.  The problem, is that you cant pick and choose who lives in the society and who does not. A society is made up of the full spread of the human condition.

Therefor, the issue becomes "Are there sufficiently more altruistic humans in the natural distribution to sustain a communist state?"

As far as I can determine, the latter answer is "no".

Without a strong positive bias in the natural mean, the society will not be able to perpetuate itself, and will not be possible.

Is it not the case rather than the state of competitive accumalation, poverty and class conflict in capitalist societies essentially enforces selfish logics on people who in the normal scheme of things? 

People have a job as a trader in the market.  It is their job to be selfish and make as much of a profit as possible but then as soon as they have the freedom those same people give the money away to charities. 

The assumption of selfish human nature rather disregards the degree to which selfishness is enforced in capitalist society through the need to "get a job" and "earn a living". 

Basically, for communism to work, altruism must be the rule, not the exception.  It is currently the other way around-- As such, it is simply unrealistic to expect true communism to work with the human race as it currently exists.

This does not mean I advocate just throwing in the towel though-- I am a rational human being, or at least, believe myself to be. As such, I see the clearly deleterious effects of the alternatives to true communism, and openly lament that the current status quo is what it is.

The problem yes is the process.  People are conditioned to behave selfishly in a certain way by a combination of propoganda, carrot and stick.

How do we go from a state where people work under coercion of poverty/starvation if they do not work in order to selfishly work to acquire wealth from everyone else to a state where everyone does whatever needs doing in return for enjoying an equal share of the total wealth?  Dwarf Fortress rather well represents that ideal state and it works because everyone works altruistically for free and recieves everything for free.

One insight I thought of is at the moment because money = power, influence, opportunity we essentially encourage the propogation of the basic values of selfishness throughout society, though it may not seem so obvious given that much of this selfishness is tinged with altruism (I will screw everyone over, so I will get rich, so I can give to orphans).

Perhaps the lack of material incentives to career advancement would weed out such people leading to a situation where the elite consist of those who are most altruistic, thus propogating their basic model of public service as the aim for the ambitions of the population. 
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Drewigi

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2014, 04:16:14 pm »

Can't we just post funny pictures of dwarfs beeing held in confined 1x1 spaces and beat up by the secret police? d:
Thank You. Why has this whole thread ABOUT A CHALLENGE, turned into a talk about politics and shit?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 04:18:36 pm by Drewigi »
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Samarkand

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2014, 04:25:45 pm »

Can't we just post funny pictures of dwarfs beeing held in confined 1x1 spaces and beat up by the secret police? d:
Thank You. Why has this whole thread ABOUT A CHALLENGE, turned into a talk about politics and shit?
Because the first relevant reply to your post didn't know the difference between communism and totalitarianism. We're actually lucky it didn't turn into a discussion about kirby avatars. :P

I think the capitalism challenge would be more interesting, since it would involve more player involvement in determining which dwarves were meeting market demands. Perhaps kicking dwarves out of fancy rooms if their job no longer relates to the current trade agreement with the other dwarves? Ooo! No artifact producers can be made to work; they've already contributed enough to society. Bonus: neither do their children. Extra bonus: If one of these rich dwarves does something wrong you have to blame it on poor dwarves. Mega bonus: refuse to employ the poorest dwarves; they're only that way cause they're lazy... I'm afraid I've brought us back to politics.
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Baffler

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2014, 12:47:58 am »

Well, four years after the Revolution, the fortress has utterly collapsed. I had one too many bourgeois oppressors executed, and widespread rioting caused society to collapse in a shower of brimstone and vitriol. There are maybe a dozen survivors, but I'd say the system has pretty thoroughly collapsed. Should I try to continue the challenge?
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Verjigorm

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2014, 02:44:20 pm »

There's plenty of altruistic humans on Earth. Call me delusional or idealistic, but I see communism as possible, but it would be a hell of a fight. The big problem, at least the one I see from my end of things, are that these altruistic people who put others before themselves are few and far between the majority. The ultimate goal I could see some sort of revolutionary leader doing is gathering these people, blocking international transit of people as far as possible, and "sowing the seed" of true communism. Far easier said than done, and Murphy's law must always be accounted for, but I don't see true communism as an actual impossibility in the society of today or the soon-to-be.

Again, it isn't that "There are no altruistic people"--- That is not the issue at all. There are indeed plenty of altruistic people. Many individual people may well be able to engage in genuine communism.  The problem, is that you cant pick and choose who lives in the society and who does not. A society is made up of the full spread of the human condition.

Therefor, the issue becomes "Are there sufficiently more altruistic humans in the natural distribution to sustain a communist state?"

As far as I can determine, the latter answer is "no".

Without a strong positive bias in the natural mean, the society will not be able to perpetuate itself, and will not be possible.

Basically, for communism to work, altruism must be the rule, not the exception.  It is currently the other way around-- As such, it is simply unrealistic to expect true communism to work with the human race as it currently exists.

This does not mean I advocate just throwing in the towel though-- I am a rational human being, or at least, believe myself to be. As such, I see the clearly deleterious effects of the alternatives to true communism, and openly lament that the current status quo is what it is.

This is why I do appreciate and approve of the "communism lite" that is in Europe right now. It provides positive reinforcement away from the self interest based thinking currently endemic to the human race, and toward the societal interest mindset needed for true communism to work. It wont happen over night, but this solution will slowly apply pressure to the human population in that locality, and over the course of many generations, subtly alter the baseline of human behavior in that region. Eventually, it will be capable of supporting real communism as it is intended.

[conversely, it is also why I have no shortage of vitriol for the current modern fascism of the US, which contributes to the problem, and not the solution.]

I think you are viewing the human race through a very specific lens. The concept of individual land ownership is a surprisingly modern creation:   for most of history, the land of a tribe, clan or nation-state was held communally, without the capability of alienation.  However, our modern society has greatly cut us off from the extended family groups that have traditionally made up our society.   And we've been pushing an agenda of the individual for so long that in America, at least, special snowflake syndrome is everywhere.
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Drewigi

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2014, 05:48:53 pm »

We should remove wierd and cyberTripping as soon as possible, they're having a cock contest.
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cyberTripping

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #69 on: August 06, 2014, 05:53:19 pm »

>finishes debate
>goes back to topic at hand, gives suggestion for challenge
>lets topic go on
CLEARLY I'm the bad guy here. GG Drew.
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Cellmonk

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #70 on: August 06, 2014, 08:09:42 pm »

We should remove wierd and cyberTripping as soon as possible, they're having a cock contest.

Honestly, I didn't mind that cock contest, and it ended in a satisfying manner. Its true that the subject veers off a little bit... maybe someone can start a separate thread to discuss the viability of communism.
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Aristion

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2014, 08:37:48 pm »

We should remove wierd and cyberTripping as soon as possible, they're having a cock contest.

Honestly, I didn't mind that cock contest, and it ended in a satisfying manner. Its true that the subject veers off a little bit... maybe someone can start a separate thread to discuss the viability of communism.

Lets continue derailing this topic evenmore by continuing with the nonsense.
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m-logik

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2014, 08:40:00 pm »

We should remove wierd and cyberTripping as soon as possible, they're having a cock contest.

Honestly, I didn't mind that cock contest, and it ended in a satisfying manner. Its true that the subject veers off a little bit... maybe someone can start a separate thread to discuss the viability of communism.

I have to agree with cellmonk on this. I've enjoyed reading the debate in this thread, and would've thrown my own hat into the ring had my own opinions on the subject not been spattered about in other peoples' posts (even if not quite how I would have argued the positions). Judging from the number of views the topic has had, it would appear that I'm not the only one who felt that way. To be honest, I would not have returned to the thread if the debate had not already been raging the first time I lurked. The two people you called out probably drew more attention to your challenge idea than the idea itself did.

Oh, and Armok forbid there be an intellectual debate on the discussion forum of a game that is famously designed to appeal to anal, detail-oriented thinkers.
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Verjigorm

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2014, 12:16:51 am »

Some folks are scared to think.   
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wierd

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2014, 12:39:29 am »

*is sorry to have engaged in the derail, but still feels that allowing ignorance of what actual communism is, and not being helpful as to why it has historically failed so many times, and has become popularly synonymous with totalitarian brutalism, (when at its core it is anything but that), is catering to said ignorance in a willful fashion, which is a serious problem with today's world. This is especially true when the dialog starts off from a faulted premise with no clarifying opening statement.  If all the actors in the thread already knew and understood the true nature of what Marx wrote about, and this challenge was intended as an intellectual "in-joke", I could totally have played along.

CT and I just had a moment where we played "blind men and an elephant".

It's overwith now.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 12:41:08 am by wierd »
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