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Author Topic: Communist Fortress  (Read 10848 times)

Samarkand

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2014, 08:01:19 pm »

> Right wing Americans not understanding anything outside of their Republican comfort zone

Glad to see even the DF community, which I believed to be one of great intelligence, is succumbing to a zombie siege.
Shame a FTL device can't apply here.

Their parents were raised on the ideals of the right winged, and they taught it to their kids.  Communism=Bad
Only America is free country!
No! Only Texas!
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Kumil

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2014, 08:11:05 pm »

you would need to mod dwarf fort to get communism, for the simple reason that nobles exist and demand that their living conditions be better than the others, and their labors be lighter.
Just rename them to syndicalists, then.
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cyberTripping

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2014, 08:20:28 pm »

Herein lies the actual crux of the issue with communism.

Humans are NOT wired psychologically for it.

I don't understand how people can use this arguement, knowing fully well humans defy what we're wired to do constantly, psychologically and physiologically. Maybe animals compete to be the best, but we've shown time and time again we don't need to obey these sorts of rules. We've kicked nature in the ass endlessly, we're even knocking at immortality's door. It's not too hard to imagine, what with all we've done, bending our true nature again until we adapt to it.
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wierd

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2014, 08:38:59 pm »

Herein lies the actual crux of the issue with communism.

Humans are NOT wired psychologically for it.

I don't understand how people can use this arguement, knowing fully well humans defy what we're wired to do constantly, psychologically and physiologically. Maybe animals compete to be the best, but we've shown time and time again we don't need to obey these sorts of rules. We've kicked nature in the ass endlessly, we're even knocking at immortality's door. It's not too hard to imagine, what with all we've done, bending our true nature again until we adapt to it.

It's quite easy. The human race is a kind of house divided--  On the one hand, we have this fantastic capacity for logical deduction, and rational action; and yet, at the same time we speak out of the other side of our mouths, and assert that some things are so innately biologically intractible that we cant reasonably expect people to act rationally.

Take for instance, the issue with say--- Teen sexuality.  Rationally, we realize that teen sexuality is not just bad, but has basically no real redeeming societal value, and causes a net burden and strain on the society-- And yet, rather than take truly aggressive action against it, we just accept "It will happen, they cant control their hormones".

Either humans are rational beings, able to subvert these kinds of drives and behaviors, or they arent.  Some may be capable, some may be incapable, and still be humans. that is not a foolish place I will paint myself into--  Rather, it is when measured over the whole sum of a population that prevailing trends happen. Some teens have no issue with abstaining from sexual activity until they are economically situated enough to responsibly partake in that activity; But most won't, and havent historically been able to, even in the face of aggressively restrictive policy. This kind of thing alone indicates that your argument to the reason-ability of the human race is not workable. While some individual humans may be capable of engaging in true communism, the gestalt whole is not able to.

This is demonstrable by every attempt that has been made at implementing it.  It always goes down the same path-- Somebody has to assume the role of overseeing distribution, and there is nobody that can reliably be counted on to ensure that this new demographic, with it's expanded availability of resources, will not exploit that availability, and transform the communist society into the false, horrific communism we see historically.

It may be theoretically possible that something unfeeling, like a computer or some similar unliving decision making algorithm could help with this issue, but that just adds a layer to the onion-- Now you have to trust the programmers and system administrators.

Ultimately, statistics is what comes down to the problem.  The basic rule behind why statistics works, is that if you have a large and noisy dataset, and select an arbitrary sampling from that population and measure it, the distributions in that sample will be consistent across the whole.

So, if you have a large population that consistently has this problem, the same statistical spread will be present in a smaller one.

If you cant trust the resource distributors, you wont be able to trust the programmers. You wont be able to trust the administrators. You wont be able to trust the general public.  Statistically, the humans in the equation are what are unreliable.

Humans are wired for self interest. You can see this trend very prominently when you look at the huge disparity between reproductive childbirth, vs rate of adoption, across all human populations. (this way we eliminate regional noise from specific national or ethnic backgrounds, and avoid having biased data.) You will find the same with reports of child protective services issues reporting with adopted or foster children in relationship with the kinds of relationships they form with their adoptive/foster parents, vs the relationships those same parents have with their own biological children.  "The wicked stepmother" is a stereotype; no question-- It does not have difinitive predictive function for any specific individual sampled from the population-- but it does represent an outstanding bias against natural mean. That's why it persists as a stereotype.

More often than not, humans will choose self interest, over communal interest. That is why communism wont work with humans, at least as they currently exist.

[Amusingly, it is also why the tradgedy of the commons is intractible, and why we need law enforcement to begin with.]
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 08:59:57 pm by wierd »
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cyberTripping

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2014, 09:01:17 pm »

There's plenty of altruistic humans on Earth. Call me delusional or idealistic, but I see communism as possible, but it would be a hell of a fight. The big problem, at least the one I see from my end of things, are that these altruistic people who put others before themselves are few and far between the majority. The ultimate goal I could see some sort of revolutionary leader doing is gathering these people, blocking international transit of people as far as possible, and "sowing the seed" of true communism. Far easier said than done, and Murphy's law must always be accounted for, but I don't see true communism as an actual impossibility in the society of today or the soon-to-be.
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samanato

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2014, 09:16:48 pm »

This does not mean that dwarves have the same "OMG, I just GOTTA be the PRETTIEST PINK PONY OF THEM ALL! The PRETTIEST Gawd Damnit!" neurosis that humans seem to have burned into them at birth. As such, dwarves may well be capable of having true communism. (However, as pointed out by others, the existence of nobles basically demonstrates that they indeed DO have this issue, and therefor, CANNOT have true communism.)

There's also the problem of their personalities, which are basically defined in the raws as propensed to greed and lack of self-control.  Something that doesn't go together with a strong sense of community.
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wierd

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2014, 09:42:17 pm »

There's plenty of altruistic humans on Earth. Call me delusional or idealistic, but I see communism as possible, but it would be a hell of a fight. The big problem, at least the one I see from my end of things, are that these altruistic people who put others before themselves are few and far between the majority. The ultimate goal I could see some sort of revolutionary leader doing is gathering these people, blocking international transit of people as far as possible, and "sowing the seed" of true communism. Far easier said than done, and Murphy's law must always be accounted for, but I don't see true communism as an actual impossibility in the society of today or the soon-to-be.

Again, it isn't that "There are no altruistic people"--- That is not the issue at all. There are indeed plenty of altruistic people. Many individual people may well be able to engage in genuine communism.  The problem, is that you cant pick and choose who lives in the society and who does not. A society is made up of the full spread of the human condition.

Therefor, the issue becomes "Are there sufficiently more altruistic humans in the natural distribution to sustain a communist state?"

As far as I can determine, the latter answer is "no".

Without a strong positive bias in the natural mean, the society will not be able to perpetuate itself, and will not be possible.

Basically, for communism to work, altruism must be the rule, not the exception.  It is currently the other way around-- As such, it is simply unrealistic to expect true communism to work with the human race as it currently exists.

This does not mean I advocate just throwing in the towel though-- I am a rational human being, or at least, believe myself to be. As such, I see the clearly deleterious effects of the alternatives to true communism, and openly lament that the current status quo is what it is.

This is why I do appreciate and approve of the "communism lite" that is in Europe right now. It provides positive reinforcement away from the self interest based thinking currently endemic to the human race, and toward the societal interest mindset needed for true communism to work. It wont happen over night, but this solution will slowly apply pressure to the human population in that locality, and over the course of many generations, subtly alter the baseline of human behavior in that region. Eventually, it will be capable of supporting real communism as it is intended.

[conversely, it is also why I have no shortage of vitriol for the current modern fascism of the US, which contributes to the problem, and not the solution.]
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cyberTripping

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2014, 09:46:17 pm »

I suppose you're right, and I see your point.

You're a smart guy/gal, wierd, what do you do for a living might I ask?
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wierd

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2014, 10:00:02 pm »

I actually had to pursue a new career path, and am unhappy with my current employment.

Previously, I was an industrial draftsman and CNC programmer working for a midsized hard metal manufacturing company, specializing in aerospace applications.

However, they were purchased by a large mega-conglomerate, and instituted draconian intellectual policy agreements that would make George Orwell roll over in his grave, which I refused to agree to. Consequently, I could no longer work there.

This necessitated my seeking of alternative employment. I currently work for another, different mega-corporation as part of their telephone technical support team. (Oh, so much fun /s) However, this is perfectly rational, as I spent over 7 years outside of IT, and this job will give me a good tech refresh in that area of expertise-- It will enable me to seek superior employment later.
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cyberTripping

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2014, 10:12:01 pm »

Sounds delightful. I've gotta hand it to you for sticking to your guns like that, takes some real bravery. I've seen you post before on the dwarven computing threads and the like, you always manage to confound me when I read your posts about that. Not sure what that says about either of us is good or bad, but hey, it's something.

Edit: cT: try to make conversation on a forum thread in leau of having anything to make an intelligent reply with
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 10:26:51 pm by cyberTripping »
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wierd

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2014, 10:26:44 pm »

Meh--  (shrugs)  Not everyone is down with raw logic. :P Truth be told, Many of larix's designs confound me as well, since they are hyper-optimized solutions within a very specific domain.  I just provide him with a more general view of how his optimized subcomponents can be assembled into a greater whole. Logical OR is logical OR-- regardless of how many timer ticks it takes. :D

Computer science and IT was always more of a "hobby" rather than a vocation, up until recently. Something I could sate my inner autistic streak on, without major impact.  Turns out it was a worthwhile investment, otherwise I would be among the many millions of US citizens on unemployment. (Worse, I was not eligible for unemployment, because I voluntarily terminated my previous employment myself. I would have been completely at the mercy of family and friends.)

Still, we have co-opted this thread enough.

I still think dwarven society stinks to high heaven of blatant fascism though.

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cyberTripping

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2014, 10:33:39 pm »

Arm guards with masterwork steel swords. Hell, just make your fortress guards part of your normal military, so they have skill with their guarding equipment.

Enjoy holding the fort together between tantrum spirals.
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Cellmonk

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2014, 10:35:31 pm »

Wow, This thread was really interesting to read. I can see the fascist side of dwarven society, though I have previously seen them as more communist (mostly because that seemed a little bit more positive, and I like to think of my Dwarven society is positive (aside from kitten chutes). I like the idea of a brutal state police, I might implement it in my next fort. hardening the dwarves will be much more important.
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Baffler

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2014, 11:43:43 pm »

In that vein, I successfully brought about the Revolution to throw off the Bourgeois oppressors from the workers of glorious Fallhammers. Of the 184 dwarves before the 6-month long Brass Revolution (so named for the brass goblets the mayor ordered, leading to the lethal beating of some glassmaker that kicked the spiral off) only the 73 loyal to the Party survived. Now that all of the filthy traitors have been incinerated and memorialized in a new monument chamber, I'll kick off the challenge properly.

Totalitarian Fortress:
1) If it can't be provided to every dwarf, no dwarf will get it, excepting what's allowed in part 5.
2) Holders of hereditary titles and their relatives will be executed immediately.
3) Every dwarf has every unskilled labor active (plus mining, hunting, or woodcutting.)
   3a. Except for the mayor, manager, and other appointed nobles Party representatives, who are exempt from all work except what's related to their station.
4) The fortress guard is fully militarized, and the justice system is activated in full. People who committed crimes during the Revolution have their crimes pinned on holders of hereditary titles, or whoever happens to displease you.
5) The mayor should live as lavishly as possible, and dwarves legendary at skilled labor should have generally nicer accommodations.
6) If the mayor loses the election they cannot practice a trade, and must be jailed or put to menial labor.
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Torrenal

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Re: Communist Fortress
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2014, 11:52:15 pm »

All it really comes down to is that people suck. Whether its in communism or capitalism, they always dick around and make a perfectly good system fall to pieces.

"The problem with Socialism is Socialism;
 The problem with Captialism is Captialists."
 -- Milton Friedman



Luckily, with dwarves we don't have to worry about motivation in different systems, or greedy dwarves hoarding resources and impoverishing other dwarves. Yet. I'm sure Toady has it planned, and then you all can have the same discussion, only actually about a communist fortress.

I wants to mint my coins... and use them too.

//Torrenal
-- Proud overseer of a dwarven fortress with over 20,000 lead coins in wealth.
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