Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[clinodev]

The development cycle of Dwarf Fortress does seem to obey Marx's general theory of economic history, we're just playing after the total collapse of Capitalism in 40d. . ..

[Gukag]

Communism in a fantasy world generator applying to a fictional race composed entirely of expendable miners, smiths and workers. Possibly the only place where "real" communism can exist, appart from social insect societies. Dwarves=ants.

[notquitethere]

For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.

A communist Fortress has all the jobs enabled for all the dwarves, with the general production regulated by society (as represented by the player, who controls the will of society).

[wierd]

Not exactly-- It would be more "A job is available-- whoop, Looks like Urist #765 took it." where the player does not really do much more than just turn a workshop on.

That could be further automated with workflows dfhack plugin. then the player just has one job-- control refuse production and disposition.

[warwizard]

For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.

A communist Fortress has all the jobs enabled for all the dwarves, with the general production regulated by society (as represented by the player, who controls the will of society).

This is what I do all the time, the only jobs are not 100% enabled on every dwarf are the mining woodcutting and hunting, (and fishing) the first three cause only one of the three can be enabled at a time, and fishing cause it's too high of a priority everybody would be out fishing and nothing else would get done. I removed the work exemption and the justice exemption from EVERY position including the king, EVERYBODY works. It's simply amazing how fast everything gets done with multiple workshops, running in parallel. Everybody gets bedrooms but they all get the same basic bedroom except for the ones with [sleep pretension] next world I roll up will have that tag removed so I do not have to vary much from my 3x3 bedrooms.

  Now if I wanted to model socialism as practiced in Russia, that would be a different animal altogether.

[Baffler]

Stalinist Fortress would be interesting to say the least. I'll simulate a "revolution" in my current fortress by inducing a tantrum spiral and see how it goes...

[Prudent Viper]

Communism in a fantasy world generator applying to a fictional race composed entirely of expendable miners, smiths and workers. Possibly the only place where "real" communism can exist, appart from social insect societies. Dwarves=ants.

Stop. This is not the place to discuss the viability of certain social structures. If you want to do so, find an appropriate forum. Before you do that, may I also humbly request that you read up on the subject? If you could take a cursory glance at Marx's work, perhaps?
I apologise if I come across as snarky. That is not my intention. However, it irritates me greatly to see you just dismiss an entire school of thought. For your information, many modern social scientists see that our current system of neoliberalism as unsustainable, owing to it's constant need for expansion, both economically and in other ways. Communism, or some form of Socialism could be seen as preferable in this instance. Because a (true) communist system only produces what is needed, and does not produce a surplus like a capitalist society, it has a far longer lifespan, and would be much more respectful of our limited resources.
TL;DR Dismissing an entire school of thought is rude, morally wrong, and makes you appear ignorant.

[GoblinCookie]

Stop. This is not the place to discuss the viability of certain social structures. If you want to do so, find an appropriate forum. Before you do that, may I also humbly request that you read up on the subject? If you could take a cursory glance at Marx's work, perhaps?
I apologise if I come across as snarky. That is not my intention. However, it irritates me greatly to see you just dismiss an entire school of thought. For your information, many modern social scientists see that our current system of neoliberalism as unsustainable, owing to it's constant need for expansion, both economically and in other ways. Communism, or some form of Socialism could be seen as preferable in this instance. Because a (true) communist system only produces what is needed, and does not produce a surplus like a capitalist society, it has a far longer lifespan, and would be much more respectful of our limited resources.
TL;DR Dismissing an entire school of thought is rude, morally wrong, and makes you appear ignorant.

Thing is the response is quite predicted by the school of thought itself.   

The original poster is a case in point.  The dwarf fortress economy (as with a lot of other simplified game economies) is already far more communist than any real-world society on that scale or level of technological advancement has ever been.

Capitalist ideology cannot however really tolerate said reality when combined with a lack of inherant in-built oppressiveness.  This is expressed through the constant calls for the restoration of "the economy" by which is meant the imposition of capitalist economic logic onto the game.  This is justified in the name of realism, since capitalist imagination cannot percieve of the functioning of any other possible social arrangment than capitalism. 

[Gukag]

I'm quite familiar with marxism and real-world applications thereof. So some postmodernist social "scientists" are marxist inspired. Yes, I know. A lot of the pomo nonsense word salads that attempt to pass themselves off as "science" are in origin from marxist french philosophers and social "scientists".

You see here in France the words "marxist" or "communist" do not have the connotations of something inherently alien or evil, as they largely do in the US. They have been a present part of the academic and political landscape since they first appeared. It's merely a matter of fact description. Having some naive navel-gazing tumblr SJW american whine that anyone who is "anti-marxist" must obviously be an american right-wing republican zombie is what prompted me to post my, granted somewhat trolly, response. Funny how "dismissing an entire school of thought" doesn't provoke you as long as it isn't your own pet political theory.

I'd love to see people like this visit eastern european formerly communist countries one of these days, so they can explain to any anti-marxists there "No, you don't understand, it wasn't REAL communism. Real communism can exist in a fantasy world generator computer gamer where individuals are nothing more than a simplistic arrangement of code all under the complete telepathic control of an intelligence exterior to their own, so obviously the only reason it doesn't work in RL is because of like, capitalist false consciousness or something."

[cyberTripping]

I didn't say anything of the viability. I said that he had no fucking clue what he was on about, which is a very common trait of the right wing over here. Two different things. He could be an anarchist for all I care, he still had no idea what the hell communism means, which is funny considering its prevalence.

[Miuramir]

DF starts off best described IMO as what Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri described as "Frontier Economics": there is ownership, but survival needs trump it.  Natural resources are free for the taking, raw materials are generally considered a common good, but finished materials are frequently owned.  Additionally, while theoretically any dwarf can do any job, in practice it is more efficient to allow specialties to develop. 

As the nobility kicks in, a DF fort transitions toward a direction that is not quite either Feudalism or Monarchy, but looks similar.  The fundamental two-way contracts of early feudalism seem to be missing or skipped.  Given the DF setting, the logical conclusion is that the DF mountainhome has transitioned into a late-period faux-feudal monarchy (or even monarchy-themed crony dictatorship) already; your fort isn't "naturally" evolving political structure, but instead is having the structure of the mountainhome thrust upon it once it becomes interesting or important enough to pay attention to. 

Seeing how large and prosperous your fort can get while maintaining the frontier economics is a reasonable challenge goal; in the current version it may require some careful planning due to the inheritance rules.  (Shutting yourself off from the outside is no longer a reliable way to avoid nobles without some attention to world parameters, in particular.) 

[IRON_GAUNTLET]

I didn't say anything of the viability. I said that he had no fucking clue what he was on about, which is a very common trait of the right wing over here. Two different things. He could be an anarchist for all I care, he still had no idea what the hell communism means, which is funny considering its prevalence.

Who are you talking to though..?
But come on, it's alright. We are not here to insult and despise eachother. I want to see you cheer up and make some cool posts, and if you need to vent, feel free to do so.

Afterall, what's cooler then discussing how we can impose arbitrary rules on dwarfes that would even put a noble to shame, and punish them with torture chambers and a secret police force?

[Samarkand]

Ignoring discussions about political realities, you would need to mod dwarf fort to get communism, for the simple reason that nobles exist and demand that their living conditions be better than the others, and their labors be lighter. Other than those two things you're set up well for communism, since there is little personal property anyway. Give all dwarves equal quarters and equal access to food and drink, and you're pretty much there.

[Gukag]

I'm pretty sure you can just reject all nobility when first offered the "promotion" to barony from the mountainhome. I usually don't and just pick a dwarf with object and material preferences that aren't a pain in the ass to satisfy (no crafts, tools, toys, instruments that are created arbitrarily and require more micromanagement than just 'j' 'm' 'q', no slade or candy, etc).
Don't know what the consequences are, or if it's ever offered again. Maybe the ruler will just never show up at your fort?

[LarsGerhard]

I'm pretty sure you can just reject all nobility when first offered the "promotion" to barony from the mountainhome. I usually don't and just pick a dwarf with object and material preferences that aren't a pain in the ass to satisfy (no crafts, tools, toys, instruments that are created arbitrarily and require more micromanagement than just 'j' 'm' 'q', no slade or candy, etc).
Don't know what the consequences are, or if it's ever offered again. Maybe the ruler will just never show up at your fort?

You can't reject inheritance.