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[Lemunde]

Can someone watch this and tell me if the obsidian goes through steel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjV7lYP6hRw

Spoiler: rant (click to show/hide)

Apparently someone over at youtube decided to make youtube videos not recognize my flash player even with the entire page allowed by request policy and no script. Oh well, it was a small loss for me and hell no I'm not going to give up these addons that help avoid some malware and give me greater control over my browser just to watch youtube videos.

Well they weren't testing obsidian swords, just these spear things. All of the damage being done was a direct result of the amount of force going into the attack. They probably would have had about as much success with a blunt tip. However against a soft fleshy target they were quite formidable.

[Urist Da Vinci]

... However against a soft fleshy target they were quite formidable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LBa1G12KyTM#t=195

[Miuramir]

... However against a soft fleshy target they were quite formidable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LBa1G12KyTM#t=195

I've been starting to explain the maquahuitl as "a cricket bat studded with broken glass" to people; it seems to get the idea across better than more prosaic descriptions.  The primary problem is that DF doesn't really do weapon degradation.  A fresh obsidian sword should be *brutal* against fleshy targets, but get slightly less effective each time it hits bone, wood, shell, or soft metals; and get dramatically less effective each time it hits bronze or better.  But even after the obsidian edges are mostly off, it's still a fairly good club. 

The Aztecs were limited by a low-tech, low-surface-metals embark; if you have plentiful wood, obsidian, bone, and leather but just a smidgen of native gold and native copper something like the obsidian sword should be your best source of slashing damage.  Against most semi-realistic animal foes, and similarly limited humanoids, it should work fairly well; but be seriously limiting against anyone with metal armor, or inorganic forgotten beasts. 

Random thought... I don't think this quite works in the current version, but if we ever get better weapon coatings, could we represent the obsidian flake edges using the same framework as used for poisons and other deadly extracts?  Have it cause bleeding and have an increasing chance to "wear off" on hits.  This would allow other historical weapons such as obsidian-enhanced spears. 

[klefenz]

The Spanish won not so much because of gunpowder and steel, but mostly due to "accidental" bio-warfare.
They were surrounded by deadly gas and other noxious secretions.

[BoredVirulence]

The Spanish won not so much because of gunpowder and steel...

Its truly ironic that the decline in armor because of gunpowder caused the gunpowder wielding foes to make themselves MORE vulnerable. A well armored European knight would certainly have been a near invulnerable god of war in such an environment.

Its curious to think what would have happened to the Spanish if they didn't introduce diseases. I suppose they would have been driven out like the vikings, easily.

[Lemunde]

The Spanish won not so much because of gunpowder and steel...

Its truly ironic that the decline in armor because of gunpowder caused the gunpowder wielding foes to make themselves MORE vulnerable. A well armored European knight would certainly have been a near invulnerable god of war in such an environment.

Its curious to think what would have happened to the Spanish if they didn't introduce diseases. I suppose they would have been driven out like the vikings, easily.

I think you're overestimating the efficiency of medieval armor. While highly effective against bladed weaponry, a bullet has no problem piercing it.

[BoredVirulence]

The Spanish won not so much because of gunpowder and steel...

Its truly ironic that the decline in armor because of gunpowder caused the gunpowder wielding foes to make themselves MORE vulnerable. A well armored European knight would certainly have been a near invulnerable god of war in such an environment.

Its curious to think what would have happened to the Spanish if they didn't introduce diseases. I suppose they would have been driven out like the vikings, easily.

I think you're overestimating the efficiency of medieval armor. While highly effective against bladed weaponry, a bullet has no problem piercing it.

No, you misread. The context is the Spanish vs the natives. The decline in armor, because guns make armor useless, made the Spanish more vulnerable against the natives. If the Spanish had outfitted a fifth of their forces like a traditional knight, they would have been much more effective against the natives.

[klefenz]

The Spanish won not so much because of gunpowder and steel...

Its truly ironic that the decline in armor because of gunpowder caused the gunpowder wielding foes to make themselves MORE vulnerable. A well armored European knight would certainly have been a near invulnerable god of war in such an environment.

Its curious to think what would have happened to the Spanish if they didn't introduce diseases. I suppose they would have been driven out like the vikings, easily.

I think the vikings were not so much driven out, they just landed in North America, a place that doesnt have naerly as much gold as Central America. Since there wasnt much ☼wealth☼ to take they just left.
The Aztecs and Incas accumulated too much ☼wealth☼, which attracted sieges.

I would like to know what would have happened if the Vikings made it south and met the Aztecs. So much blood.

[BoredVirulence]

The Spanish won not so much because of gunpowder and steel...

Its truly ironic that the decline in armor because of gunpowder caused the gunpowder wielding foes to make themselves MORE vulnerable. A well armored European knight would certainly have been a near invulnerable god of war in such an environment.

Its curious to think what would have happened to the Spanish if they didn't introduce diseases. I suppose they would have been driven out like the vikings, easily.

I think the vikings were not so much driven out, they just landed in North America, a place that doesnt have naerly as much gold as Central America. Since there wasnt much ☼wealth☼ to take they just left.
The Aztecs and Incas accumulated too much ☼wealth☼, which attracted sieges.

I would like to know what would have happened if the Vikings made it south and met the Aztecs. So much blood.

From what I was reading, I forget where, there was evidence that the viking settlement lasted for some time. It wasn't one of conquest, rather it was just another settlement. There were supposedly relatively peaceful relations until there was a clash of cultures, and the Native Americans kicked them out. Supposedly, they were too much for the vikings. But there could be a number of reasons, the most likely being that it was a peaceful settlement and they didn't have enough warriors.

Also, South America didn't have much gold either, Spain made their fortunes primarily in silver. Its also worth noting that most viking raids were against poorly defended targets. They could definitely hold their own in battle, but they wouldn't have been anywhere nearly as successful if they didn't have as many easy targets.

Really, if the vikings had decided to raid the Aztec people, they probably would have had a hard battle. Chainmail is great in melee combat, but the natives used ranged weapons to great affect. Not to mention the macuahuitl makes a great club, which is also good against chainmail. But all of that asside, I just picture a berserk viking running naked down the streets of an Aztec city butchering everything in his path, with a few spears stuck into one side...

[klefenz]

Remember shields, Vikings used shield wall tactics, which are very good against arrows and spears.

[Frogwarrior]

But all of that asside, I just picture a berserk viking running naked down the streets of an Aztec city butchering everything in his path, with a few spears stuck into one side...

"Hey! Could you do that on the temple instead? Shame to waste all that blood."

[BoredVirulence]

From head on. We're talking about some of the best guerrilla warfare specialists. Many Native Americans liked to hide in trees to fire ranged weaponry. Not to mention that vikings shields, well, sucked. Wooden bucklers don't make for effective shield walls against projectiles. You really need tower shields, at the least large kite shields.

I don't doubt that a proper viking offensive wouldn't have been successful though, just hard. They had some of the best infantry in the world, and infantry would have been infinitely more useful than mounted warfare when they shit hit the fan, another reason they would have been more successful than the Spanish. I only think they would have had to worry about supply lines. The rivers would only take them so far, at least against the Inca, they could have landed in some of the Aztec's most important cities with almost no resistance. But the Aztec would ingeniously trapped their ships in, breaking the supply line. Not that the tactic worked for the Chinese against the British, but it would have been annoying to say the least.

If anything though, the vikings would have become good friends and trading partners with the Aztec. They would have certainly respected their fighting prowess, especially the macuahuitl, and if they were pre-christian they might not have been too upset about sacrifices, only the act of removing an enemies right to die in battle.

But all of that asside, I just picture a berserk viking running naked down the streets of an Aztec city butchering everything in his path, with a few spears stuck into one side...

"Hey! Could you do that on the temple instead? Shame to waste all that blood."

I like to imagine that the berserker accounts we hear about are really just lost bets and too much booze before a battle...
"Remember, you have to go into battle naked, and drink our strongest mead until I take the mug out of your hands, or the enemies get here first."