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[TurboSlug22]

Hello,

So I'm sortof novice at DF so feel free to make suggestions.

Essentially I have a 3 wide 'rear' entrance leading directly to a depot that usually remains closed.

The main entrance is 1 wide, I drew up a rough image to give you the idea

http://imgur.com/sCXONTP

I call it my dwarven washing machine.. to clense the impure!

I'm sure something like this has been done before, I'm just wondering if it will work well. I know a better defense incorporates both water and magma but I'd like to avoid magma fun just for now. Basically what I'd like to know is if the screw pumps will create enough water flow to move invaders around the track. I want to line the track with saw traps and I thought to use water to push invaders around because I understand hostile creatures dont trigger traps as well right now, (perhaps because they move off of them before the trap triggers) and I thought water pressure might get them flopping around enough for the traps to trigger.

What do you think?

[YAHG]

Use a screen shot please or use an in image legend, I cant really tell what is what is going on.

It looks like you have 4 screw pumps that you are filling a moat up with (water?) then you got a way to drain the water.

The moat also looks like it is underground, almost like a gauntlet/airlock that can be filled with water and then drained.

I can make guesses about what it is you got going on here but they are all just guesses based on what I am assuming is actually going on.

[vjek]

I've built something similar in the past, with both water and magma.

They're fun megaprojects, and generally challenging.  Ultimately, I was affected by the following bug, which made them both untenable in the long term.

The short version is, any item or object pushed by liquid flow in DF can become "lost" or otherwise bugged in terms of location/visibility/interactions.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try it/build it, just be aware, if you notice strange behavior, this four year old "liquid flow pushing items into oblivion" bug is likely the culprit.

[TurboSlug22]

Use a screen shot please or use an in image legend, I cant really tell what is what is going on.

It looks like you have 4 screw pumps that you are filling a moat up with (water?) then you got a way to drain the water.

The moat also looks like it is underground, almost like a gauntlet/airlock that can be filled with water and then drained.

I can make guesses about what it is you got going on here but they are all just guesses based on what I am assuming is actually going on.

Ah sorry, ya I'm at work so no screenshots unfortunately

But basically Yes, its underground and its a 1 tile wide hallway that creates a looped track with screw pumps at the corners to push water into the loop. The idea is the water pressure will get invaders flowing around the loop. There are traps placed along the loop as well.

Hopefully this is helpful - but will it work?

[TurboSlug22]

I've built something similar in the past, with both water and magma.

They're fun megaprojects, and generally challenging.  Ultimately, I was affected by the following bug, which made them both untenable in the long term.

The short version is, any item or object pushed by liquid flow in DF can become "lost" or otherwise bugged in terms of location/visibility/interactions.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try it/build it, just be aware, if you notice strange behavior, this four year old "liquid flow pushing items into oblivion" bug is likely the culprit.

Thanks for the tips : ) I read the bug report and it says dumping the items can bring them back into view which shouldnt be too much trouble for me. The biggest concern I had was with the water pressure being able to push invaders around. I wasnt sure if screwpumps could do that

Thanks for your comments!! ^_^

[vjek]

Oh yes, liquid pressure is a powerful force in DF.

To the point where, once in a "test build" hallway I was using magma (yes, the blood of Armok himself) and the velocity was so high from pressurizing it, goblins were pushed through fortifications so quickly, they didn't even burn.  They just recovered from being slammed against the wall, got up and attended to their most favorite task, killing dwarves.

That was an exciting day. 

[TurboSlug22]

Oh yes, liquid pressure is a powerful force in DF.

To the point where, once in a "test build" hallway I was using magma (yes, the blood of Armok himself) and the velocity was so high from pressurizing it, goblins were pushed through fortifications so quickly, they didn't even burn.  They just recovered from being slammed against the wall, got up and attended to their most favorite task, killing dwarves.

That was an exciting day. 

Haha sounds like a fun day for the fortress

Ya I noticed this in an earlier fort using a cistern to flood soemthing and had some invaders pushed through fortifications, its for that reason I had the vertical grating between the fortification and the screw pumps so any odd creature that gets swept through a fortification still cant get through the grating unless it has a building destroyer tag which should keep things relatively safe for the fort.

Do you think a 1 tile track will be too tight for pressurized water to flow nicely? Would it be better to use cisterns instead of the screw pumps to get more liquid motive force?

[vjek]

In my testing, 1,2 or 3 width hallways, if you have enough pressure, all work reasonably well.

In the design you've posted, the front of screwpumps are treated as walls, iirc, so you don't need to have anything in front of them.  They're secure on their own provided, they have adjacent walls vertically, horizontally, orthogonally, and diagonally.

I think the problem you're going to have more is drainage related; having just the one drain will likely be problematic given the intended flow direction.  I'm trying to remember I built a single-direction hallway with an automated trigger/drain, and it worked, but the problems were related to either drowning or not drowning the goblins.

That is, unless every tile in the target area went to 7/7 for several ticks (several dozen ticks?) the goblins would survive.  In order to ensure that, I had to build a sort of snorkel-sensor, one Z level above, to ensure the z-level below was 100% solid floodwater.  I even had the same issue with magma and some FB's, Titans, Megabeasts, and Semi-Megabeasts.  Unless they were 7/7 submerged, and in some cases, like a bronze colossus, for a damned long time, they didn't die.

Of course, that's all part of the challenge. 

[TurboSlug22]

Oh, do I understand you right that once the track is 7/7 flooded that the screwpumps wont be able to create the cyclical flow any longer?

It sounds like the best I could get out of this specific design is a drowning hallway with some traps in it, which isnt terrible in itself but I was hoping to have some spin-cycle action : )

Perhaps I need to re-think the drainage

Thanks for the tips! Back to the drawing board! lol

[Quietust]

if you notice strange behavior, this four year old "liquid flow pushing items into oblivion" bug is likely the culprit.

4 years? Try 6+ years - this one's been around since before 40d, likely dating back to the introduction of multiple water levels (i.e. when fortress mode went 3D).

[clinodev]

40d has the best, most creative bay12 threads. I find things I'd never have thought of and have never seen done all the time, back mining. And hey, 90% of it works fine in 34.11, almost certainly the same in 40.xx. Mine, mine mine the forum!

[Urist Da Vinci]

40d has the best, most creative bay12 threads. I find things I'd never have thought of and have never seen done all the time, back mining. And hey, 90% of it works fine in 34.11, almost certainly the same in 40.xx. Mine, mine mine the forum!

Many people remember back when magma weapons were popular. There was a special time in 40d or so when ice/freezing traps were common, though that seems to have faded away. I also miss the attempts to colonize the bottoms of lakes and oceans.

[clinodev]

There are definite trends visible. This seems like the age of "Traps are for wimps! Charge them in the open field!"

I'm very glad for old water traps and all the clever pathing traps, because I'm more interested in design/simulation than goblins.

Old school awesome: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62798.msg1443094#msg1443094

[celem]

This could work, hard to tell until it's built.

If I understand it right you want to push critters round the loop, which is presumably a trap-corridor.  Yes your pump should be able to push critters with the water pressure.  You tend to get an even stronger push by having a multi-z water cistern with floodgates on the ground-floor to trigger the flooding however, water pressure rises properly when draining the bottom of a large tank.  1-tile width ought to be fine if you are pressurising, it's just too slow for natural-flood style designs as water spreads pretty slow down a 1xN corridor

The questions therefore are going to be: is the pump generating fast enough flow to push the critters, and will the water path the way you want to swirl the badguys round the loop without getting stuck somewhere?

The answers will come by building it, son!  Toss items into it and watch how they move.

Getting items stuck in the walls is a pest sure.  But I never much bothered about it.  It does eliminate some cunning attempts to move your own goods with water-pressure.  Dwarven Engineers were trying that long before minecarts and wheelbarrows were a twinkle in the Toad's eye and the bug does break it.  Its not much of an impact on a trap mainly there for it's lethality, though getting food items stuck like this does generate perpetual miasma until you dump them out of oblivion so 'push-drowning' an entire caravan is a bad idea.  Might want to avoid the usual serrated discs in favor of blunt traps just to avoid loads of severed limbs embedded in the moat walls.