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[LarsGerhard]

So with a new version my thoughts have turned again to designs for early game trade depots and I figured I’d get input from the forum. I’d like to capture every years supply of guards and wagon wood which I’ve found in the past to be doable although it requires a bit of a hustle in the first year.

What seems like the best approach to me for the early game is to have a bridge leading into an otherwise closed in trade depot then to retract the bridge to drop everything onto cage traps and then trigger a cave in to knock everyone out. This should break the wagons and cage everyone.

I'm not sure how long the bridge needs to be for it to be able to always encompass the entire caravan before it is dropped.

I’m not sure what to do about the merchants since they go insane when captured. Their bones aren’t very useful and you’ll have to deal with their ghost which isn’t difficult but having merchant coffins or slabs laying around is suboptimal if it can be avoided. Insane merchants won’t leave the map if you allow them right? Is there any chance of them lasting long enough to sell to another caravan? Obviously eventually you’ll want to separate the guards to cage, wagons to scuttle and merchants to allow to leave but that will probably require something hostile to draw away the guards and that’s not reliably acquirable in the early game.

By the way, does anyone know if stealing merchant clothing counts as reducing the caravan profits like stealing the actual trade goods?

Here’s a diagram of my current thoughts on depot design. Naturally a lot of this doesn't need to be there for the first caravan and can be filled in later.

Side View

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

WFFFFFFFW
WBBBW_F_W
W^^^GFIFW

Top Level

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

WWWWWWWWWW
WFFFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFFFW
WFFFFFFFFW
..........
WFFFFFFFFW
WWWWWWWWWW

Depot Level

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

WWWWWWWWWW
WTTTTTFFFW
WTTTTTFFFW
WTTTTTFFFW
WTTTTTFWDW
WTTTTTWWXW
WFFFWWWBWW
WBBBW__F_W
..........
_RRRW____W
____WWWWWW

Trap Level

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

__________
__________
__________
__________
WWWWWWWWWW
WFFDDDDB<D
WWWDWWWDWW
W^^^GFFIFW
..........
WWWWW____W
_RRRWWWWWW

Legend

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

F=Floor
x=Up/Down Staircase
<=Up Staircase
W=Wall
T=Trade Depot
D=Door
B=Bridge
^=Cage Trap
G=Grate
I=Support
R=Ramp
.=Ditto some unspecified amount of times the above tile
_=Empty/Unassigned Space

[i2amroy]

Is there any chance of them lasting long enough to sell to another caravan?

Important note, but attempting to sell live animals to a caravan results in your dwarves simply brining the cage to the depot and letting the animals go free. I highly suggest that you not do that if the cage contains anything particularly dangerous.

[LarsGerhard]

Is there any chance of them lasting long enough to sell to another caravan?

Important note, but attempting to sell live animals to a caravan results in your dwarves simply brining the cage to the depot and letting the animals go free. I highly suggest that you not do that if the cage contains anything particularly dangerous.

Right, duh. Should have remembered that.

[LarsGerhard]

The bugtracker seems to suggest Toady is working on the whole dragging around dangerous stuff so that's nice.

Thinking about it I'm considering extending the bottom level so it's the size of the levels above it. it's better aesthetically and I can probably make use of the space.

And feel free to talk about other trade depot designs everyone.

[flameaway]

In 34.11 you can just deconstruct the depot while the caravan is inside and the traders will leave, abandoning all the goods they brought with them. 

Oh goodie! Free stuff.

It does hurt your rep with the civilizations you rip off.

Has this been fixed in 40.0x?

[LarsGerhard]

In 34.11 you can just deconstruct the depot while the caravan is inside and the traders will leave, abandoning all the goods they brought with them. 

Oh goodie! Free stuff.

It does hurt your rep with the civilizations you rip off.

Has this been fixed in 40.0x?

I'm pretty sure it hasn't. Of course it's not really a high priority because as you pointed out it still means reduced merchant profits. It does auto-launder the goods though, which is nice. You'll get a similar result from any method used to scuttle wagons.

[flameaway]

{realizes he should have read more carefully}
Duh

[Mimodo]

I'm looking at doing a similar thing, except I want to keep the guards for fortress defence.

Have you tested your design yet? I'm thinking that if you were to construct the cages at a location of your choice, and link to a pressure plate, we could release merchants on intruders once the pass a certain point (depending on fortress design).

See my thread here for my intentions. Stealing the entire caravan of goods could also be useful

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141796.0

[LarsGerhard]

Well I'm actually already in the other thread : ).

In theory I also want the guards for defense although in practice I prefer to use traps so it will end up being a luxury like having a trained military. Technically useful but not actually intended to be called upon.

I've tested the fundamental mechanism of the design in earlier versions but no, I haven't tested the design yet. It's also not the best implementation possible. it's better to draw guards away with hostiles and cage them on webbed traps but that's hard to do in the early years.

You could release them from cages to fight enemies but they would also function fine if released into an area to which the goblins are introduced. This could possibly allow you to stack things in favour of the guards. For example the Dwarven 'Mercenaries' thread brings up the idea of dropping goblins to allow the guards to more easily take them out. Releasing them should open up danger room, coinstar, shaft of enlightenment and discipline training. Remember, these guys can improve in skills and attributes so it's worth taking care of them.

[Mimodo]

Genius here not looking at who posted what :p now I feel a bit stupid.

Anyway, you say they can level up themselves? Well that changes everything, my plans were to use them as cannon fodder.

I read the other thread with the troll to capture them. This could potentially be refined to keep the troll too. If a cage trap were placed directly after the window, the soldiers would have already been captured, and the troll, seeing the merchants in the depot, would continue forward after breaking the window, only to be recaptured. Then it's a simple cage construction and you only lose a window, rather than a troll.

This seems to require a redesign of my fortress entrance too.

[LarsGerhard]

I haven't independently confirmed that they can gain skills and attributes but they should.

It does seem unnecessary to actually have the guards engage the bait. Remember that whatever you do you need to either use a cave in trap or webs to actually trap them. They won't trigger a normal cage trap.