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[Orange Wizard]

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

This is one of those points refuted a thousand times.

Hang on. Can you be a little more specific than "you're wrong"?

Edit: Never mind, you answered that.

But I don't know if I agree with "there are a bunch of idiots who ruined it forever" premise.

Not really "ruined". The word I used was "tainted", in the sense that a chunk of the apple is rotten. I was suggesting that throwing the apple away and finding a new one would be more efficient than scraping out all of the rot.

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

I want to argue with this but I can't do it without insulting you.

Do it. I don't mind.

[alexandertnt]

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

Legal rights does not mean there is no discrimination.

There are people who actively advocate women should pursue traditional gender roles because they are women. Rather bizzarely some of the more prominent of these people are women. Hell, there are a non-insignificant number of people who don't see marital rape as rape and other absurdities. They wouldn't be worth mentioning if they diddn't actually have a significant ammount of influence.

Feminism is still very much necessary.

Extemeists exists as they seem to in everything, but measuring the validitity of a movement on the small number of extremeists is absurd.

Not really "ruined". The word I used was "tainted", in the sense that a chunk of the apple is rotten. I was suggesting that throwing the apple away and finding a new one would be more efficient than scraping out all of the rot.

Feminism is not an apple. As it has already been pointed out, there are many different views and it is a complex movement. It is not one whole.

[Neonivek]

Feminism largely suffers from having a really really stupid name for what it's supposed to promote, and honestly I think probably 50%+ of the movement's troubles and failures are due to using the stupidest possible name for the concept, which actively encourages people to use common sense to misinterpret almost in the opposite direction of what they're trying to achieve.

Imagine starting a movement that was about equality of religion and naming it "Jew-ism" or a movement that was about equality of ethnicity called "Asian-ism"
*facepalm*

Well the thing is that Feminism didn't start off as a equality movement.

It started off as a bunch of rich white women who wanted to vote because they were intelligent, well educated, white women who certainly were smarter than the rabble.

Well ok that was ONE of its starts.

So it couldn't go under any other name.

There are people who actively advocate women should pursue traditional gender roles because they are women. Rather bizzarely some of the more prominent of these people are women

What exactly is wrong with this? I know what you mean, but as written this is more: "Women advocate that women should try being home makers because as women it is rather fulfilling"

Mind you I know what you mean, not "it is a good idea" as in "If you don't you are doing something wrong".

As for why many of these people are women... Remember... There is no shame in being a home maker and it can be very rewarding and fulfilling. So you are easily going to get women who would fight for it as the ideal.

Remember that the "classical ideals" (as in 1950s) idea of what a woman "Should be" wasn't wrong in it of itself... It was the "But thou must".

Oddly enough the Cosby Show handled this. Their conclusions is whatever a woman wants to be a fine. A homemaker is as valid as being a high-power lawyer, so long as it is what they want to be and neither choices should be admonished.

[Angle]

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

Sees bomb falling... OHSHI- *Boom*

*Goes back to read thread*

[Orange Wizard]

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

Legal rights does not mean there is no discrimination.

There are people who actively advocate women should pursue traditional gender roles because they are women. Rather bizzarely some of the more prominent of these people are women. Hell, there are a non-insignificant number of people who don't see marital rape as rape and other absurdities. They wouldn't be worth mentioning if they diddn't actually have a significant ammount of influence.

Feminism is still very much necessary.

Extemeists exists as they seem to in everything, but measuring the validitity of a movement on the small number of extremeists is absurd.

I see. I was operating on "feminism == women's rights movement" as opposed to "feminism == fighting discrimination against women".

Feminism is not an apple. As it has already been pointed out, there are many different views and it is a complex movement. It is not one whole.

The purpose of the (maybe not entirely appropriate) apple analogy was about the word feminism. To me (and many other people) the word smells of unhealthy extremism.

[Putnam]

Words don't matter.

[Rolepgeek]

I think an apt analogy would be the word Bronies.

There are people who enjoy the show and take it to disturbing levels that prevent the audience the show was actually intended for from enjoying fan derivatives of it. These are known as bronies to the general public.

There are also people who just enjoy the show and aren't creepy bastards who don't even bother to make sure their porn can't be seen with Safe Search on. These people often refer to themselves as bronies unless they realize what the connotations of the word often entail.

The difference here is that the feminists who are extremists are the minority, rather than the majority. They are the vocal, oppressive minority, and thus seem larger than they are.

Plus, Poe's Law.

[GavJ]

Well the thing is that Feminism didn't start off as a equality movement.

It started off as a bunch of rich white women who wanted to vote because they were intelligent, well educated, white women who certainly were smarter than the rabble.

Well ok that was ONE of its starts.

So it couldn't go under any other name.

uh, what do you mean "couldn't"?

"Hey, let's go promote these ideals which have absolutely nothing to do with these existing other people's ideals over here that are called feminism!"
"Oh, great idea. Too bad we are bound by the laws of physics to use that other name for something that has nothing to do with us."
"Yeah, that part of it sucks."

[Neonivek]

The problem Rolepgeek is I think the "Bronies are just guys who like MLP" came first.

It was used derogatory because "Ha ha ha guys watching MLP and REALLY enjoying it".

[Putnam]

Yeah, I'm going to disagree with Hilary Putnam on this one. Meaning is just in the head.

Also, about bronies: I just asked my brother if he's a Brony. He hmmd and hawed until he said "no". So I guess that's about right.

[Angle]

There are people who actively advocate women should pursue traditional gender roles because they are women. Rather bizzarely some of the more prominent of these people are women

What exactly is wrong with this? I know what you mean, but as written this is more: "Women advocate that women should try being home makers because as women it is rather fulfilling"

Mind you I know what you mean, not "it is a good idea" as in "If you don't you are doing something wrong".

As for why many of these people are women... Remember... There is no shame in being a home maker and it can be very rewarding and fulfilling. So you are easily going to get women who would fight for it as the ideal.

Remember that the "classical ideals" (as in 1950s) idea of what a woman "Should be" wasn't wrong in it of itself... It was the "But thou must".

Oddly enough the Cosby Show handled this. Their conclusions is whatever a woman wants to be a fine. A homemaker is as valid as being a high-power lawyer, so long as it is what they want to be and neither choices should be admonished.

The thing is that there are people who advocate that women should be homemakers to the exclusion of anything else, and that any women not doing so are doing it wrong and should be "Put in her place". More troublingly, this isn't yet a fringe opinion. This is an opinion you can go around publicly stating, and encounter significant support. I do agree that homemaker is a valuable role, though- I would actually not mind seeing a government program to pay people doing such. That's not to say that I expect such a thing to ever happen, but if it miraculously appeared overnight I would not be upset.

fakeedit- 5 new replies. InsanityIncarnate, what have you done to my nice peaceful thread?

[Neonivek]

This is why I like living where I am Angle.

The ONLY way someone could say that around here, without finding the sexism dungeons, is ironically and everyone will just think it is a joke.

I would actually not mind seeing a government program to pay people doing such.

It has happened before.

[GavJ]

Yeah, I'm going to disagree with Hilary Putnam on this one. Meaning is just in the head.

Yes, and the meaning that the title of the movement itself PUTS is in the heads of millions of people out there is this:

I see. I was operating on "feminism == women's rights movement" as opposed to "feminism == fighting discrimination against women". ...To me (and many other people) the word smells of unhealthy extremism.

When the very NAME of your movement - the very first public relations contact you have with anybody about it, immediately causes common sense conclusions that differ from your actual goals, you are constantly shooting yourself in the foot.

And then they spend half their time and energy fighting misconceptions that their own name caused instead of actually promoting ideals.

[Orange Wizard]

Words don't matter.

Hyig jerrum boris wyrtolium.

fakeedit- 5 new replies. InsanityIncarnate, what have you done to my nice peaceful thread?

There are heavy civilian strawman casualties on both sides of the semantics argument.

[Rolepgeek]

The problem Rolepgeek is I think the "Bronies are just guys who like MLP" came first.

It was used derogatory because "Ha ha ha guys watching MLP and REALLY enjoying it".

No, it became a symbol for a perversion of the fandom once a large group of/a lot of the people who called themselves bronies made it into a disgusting perversion of a healthy fandom that makes me hesitant to even try to get back into the fandom.

Besides which, I'm pretty sure feminists wanting equal rights came first, rather than extremists wanting some sort of Amazonian pseudo-culture.