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[Il Palazzo]

There's a Human Behavioral Biology course available on Stanford's youtube channel that is extremely pertinent to the topic at hand.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL848F2368C90DDC3D
I've only just started watching it, and there's a lot of material, but already I'd recommend it to anyone even remotely interested in why we act the way we act.

[alexandertnt]

The way I see it, is if women want to pursue a cultural norm, that is their right. Hence I dislike feminists who try to force all women to reject cultural norms.

Feminists are generally not opposed to women doing any particular thing, they are opposed to the expectation that women should/shouldn't do certain things.

If a women wants to cook, thats great, but it should not be expected that women cook, nor should a women cook just because they feel they must because of their gender.

[Samarkand]

Feminists are generally not opposed to women doing any particular thing, they are opposed to the expectation that women should/shouldn't do certain things.

Depends heavily on the feminists, I believe during the second-wave there was a very vocal portion that was calling for women to actively reject gender role activities, even if they wanted to do them. On a related note that we cannot discuss in detail here, the Feminist Sex Wars was a time when feminists argued about what feminists should and should not be allowed to do.

[Rolepgeek]

My view on the subject.

[Orange Wizard]

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

[Samarkand]

My view on the subject.

Props, its the best view to have. Its far from universal (hence the cartoon being made).

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

Some feminism is still looking for equality. Even legal equality isn't quite there yet (maybe they have the same rights as men, but definitely not corporations). They can vote isn't the end of the story. And other sorts of equality still lag behind. Average full-time wage lowers as more women join an industry. Women are paid something like seventy cents on the dollar, at least in the U.S. I can't speak for the western world, though I heard its worse in Italy [citation needed].

[Neonivek]

One thing to remember is that "Feminism" and "Feminists" for that matter are not like "Liberals" or "Conservatives" where there is a very general idea of what they are about.

They are a diverse group of many philosophies, doctrines, and beliefs.

Some are not egalitarian at all and yes, do not believe in equality. Those people existing is not a myth. They are a minority but they still exist (the belief is also more nuanced then I give credit. They mostly believe that males and females are basically ENTIRELY separate, like separate species. Equality would only be one group's equality)

The myth comes from just sort of putting all feminists together into one group.

To ADMIT it isn't anyone's fault for thinking all feminists think alike.

How many times do you see someone claim to be feminist or to have a feminist show, game, or what have you... and they never really clarify what form of feminism they are under... Or even go as far as to "speak for feminism". This is just how feminists portray themselves mind you, we could write books on how others portray them.

Many feminists go by the "if you are not a feminist you are sexist" type of thinking. Even going as far as to say that if you agree with feminism then you are feminist and saying your not is just being stupid.

So this whole skewed belief is something I fully understand and created from both sides of the debate.

Which frankly adds credence to the "everyone is stupid" argument.

Note: I know I sound like I am vilifying feminism... it wasn't my intent... I just didn't want to fill in all the ways society, media, internet misrepresents them. I am simply saying that people who practice feminism are by no means blameless victims when it comes to their misrepresentation.

 

Average full-time wage lowers as more women join an industry.

Honestly this is probably one of the more interesting subjects EVER if you actually REALLY look into it.

Since if you go into it you go by the premise that "Of course women are just getting less pay because they are being picked on for being women or getting pregnant"... And while you will find that, you will also find that... for example... women are more likely to work for charitable/non-profit organizations or go for more fulfilling less paying jobs.

Turning what was once a simple explanation into something much more complex.

It was actually quite the interesting read.

[Rolepgeek]

Well now, that depends, how can you measure job fulfillment?

And it could well be that they do those things because that's how society has conditioned them to act, keep in mind.

[Neonivek]

Well now, that depends, how can you measure job fulfillment?

And it could well be that they do those things because that's how society has conditioned them to act, keep in mind.

Ohh don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you couldn't find issues with even that.

For example maybe non-profit businesses have more relaxed hiring practices.

Only that, what seemed like a question where the problem could be fully and sufficiently answered with "because sexism" became a more complex question.

[Putnam]

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

This is one of those points refuted a thousand times.

[Neonivek]

Look no one except the blind, deaf, and stupid is going to argue that there aren't a lot of idiot feminists out there and that it has mostly been corrupted like everything else in the world.

But really at its heart feminism often just tries to be female side egalitarianism (except the ones that aren't). You could easily argue that it is inefficient or that it does more harm then good... Heck one of my friends openly dislikes feminism and considers it an inferior product to outright egalitarianism, and I accept the premise.

But I don't know if I agree with "there are a bunch of idiots who ruined it forever" premise.

[EnigmaticHat]

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

I want to argue with this but I can't do it without insulting you.

[Neonivek]

Actually don't women currently have more legal rights then men technically?

Or did we finally patch those laws?

---

Anyhow InsanityIncarnate most people believe, including me, that women are 'still' being repressed.

Not legally mind you, there is no law that I am aware of that is outright against women... EXCEPT maybe some motherhood laws.

[GavJ]

Feminism largely suffers from having a really really stupid name for what it's supposed to promote, and honestly I think probably 50%+ of the movement's troubles and failures are due to using the stupidest possible name for the concept, which actively encourages people to use common sense to misinterpret almost in the opposite direction of what they're trying to achieve.

Imagine starting a movement that was about equality of religion and naming it "Jew-ism" or a movement that was about equality of ethnicity called "Asian-ism"
*facepalm*

[Putnam]

Personally, I think we (i.e., everyone involved) should drop this "feminism" nonsense entirely. Initially, when women were actually being repressed - in the Western world, at least - it had a point. Now the whole movement is tainted with the tumblr goings-on and various other extremists. Plus the fact that women actually have all the rights of men, in terms of property, suffrage, and the like.
Equality I can live with. Equality is cool. Feminism, not so much.

I want to argue with this but I can't do it without insulting you.

It's not hard!

The entire argument is semantics. We're not talking about words, we're talking about concepts. It doesn't add anything to say that a word is dumb.