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Author Topic: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?  (Read 8420 times)

Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2014, 03:06:42 am »

As it stands, though, hacking is either giving out too much computer skill, or too much juice. A good test would be to take someone who has zero hacking skill, and see how many days it takes to get them to 200 Juice.

Went ahead and tried this with an all-A founder. 8 intelligence, 0 computers, started January 1st, 2009. It took almost exactly six months to pass 200 juice -- he passed the threshhold on June 30th, and had 6.93 computers skill in the end. Safehouse inventory included 5 publishable items, with a total pawn value of $3500. So far, that's not bad in my mind.

There was one thing I really don't like about the outcome though, and that's the 2% heat on his safehouse in the end. Steve Jackson Games was famously raided by the Secret Service for publishing GURPS Cyberpunk, on suspicion of involvement with hacking and data piracy. The image over overkill government response to a basement hacker is iconic and I think it's a shame to have hacking be largely risk-free. I think hacking can remain as strong as it is, but can be countered by making it more dangerous, perhaps more likely to accrue charges, and producing more outsized heat for the charges that do occur.
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SuicideJunkie

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2014, 08:21:33 am »

Modifying the car chases is going to be a major long term project, and I'm pretty sure at this point that I'll have to refactor the combat code a lot in order to get there.

I've been working on random smaller things while the car thing simmers.

One notable change you didn't mention (that I think is very big), is the fact that your convictions aren't forgotten when you break someone out of jail anymore.
A life sentence is permanent, and a long jail term takes a long time to clear, no matter how many times you're found not guilty of breaking out ;).
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Cheedows

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2014, 01:51:39 pm »

Some thoughts about the state of the game itself at the moment:
  • Grinding. Boo. That's not the point of the game, but it's all over and it's kinda bullshit. Picking 50 locks a day at the apartments in order to level your security skill is a famous example. I'd like to fix this.
Yeah, I can agree that grinding has become a major part of the game. Along with security, same thing can be said for loitering a government office for months on end and become SEAL Team 6 tier stealthy.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2014, 04:20:23 pm »

Some thoughts about the state of the game itself at the moment:
  • Grinding. Boo. That's not the point of the game, but it's all over and it's kinda bullshit. Picking 50 locks a day at the apartments in order to level your security skill is a famous example. I'd like to fix this.

Yeah, I can agree that grinding has become a major part of the game. Along with security, same thing can be said for loitering a government office for months on end and become SEAL Team 6 tier stealthy.

I like that stealth is a thing and I think it's fun to do, but I don't like that you grind it up in order to turn on godmode where you can act with impunity. I think about possible solutions. I have some ideas for lockpicking already, but I'm interested in suggestions on either.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 04:24:26 pm by Jonathan S. Fox »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2014, 08:58:20 pm »

Some thoughts about the state of the game itself at the moment:
  • Grinding. Boo. That's not the point of the game, but it's all over and it's kinda bullshit. Picking 50 locks a day at the apartments in order to level your security skill is a famous example. I'd like to fix this.

Yeah, I can agree that grinding has become a major part of the game. Along with security, same thing can be said for loitering a government office for months on end and become SEAL Team 6 tier stealthy.

I like that stealth is a thing and I think it's fun to do, but I don't like that you grind it up in order to turn on godmode where you can act with impunity. I think about possible solutions. I have some ideas for lockpicking already, but I'm interested in suggestions on either.

Don't dogs and monstrosities see through even high-tier stealth?

Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2014, 10:13:09 pm »

Don't dogs and monstrosities see through even high-tier stealth?

I don't recall the underlying logic exactly, but yes, they should.
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Cheedows

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2014, 11:48:13 pm »

Don't dogs and monstrosities see through even high-tier stealth?

I don't recall the underlying logic exactly, but yes, they should.

If you got a very high heart liberal, you can talk to dogs beforehand to become best friends.
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Neonivek

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2014, 01:51:58 am »

Don't dogs and monstrosities see through even high-tier stealth?

I don't recall the underlying logic exactly, but yes, they should.

If you got a very high heart liberal, you can talk to dogs beforehand to become best friends.

This makes sense even within the context of the Satire.

Since of COURSE being Liberal makes you a champion of animals to the extent where they will follow you like you were a Disney princess.

The game only needs a section where you let animals escape a testing lab and they will start eating all the evil scientists... and they should spout something like "noo, our hubris has doomed us all!".
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 01:53:59 am by Neonivek »
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KA101

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2014, 03:27:37 am »

Some thoughts about the state of the game itself at the moment:
  • Grinding. Boo. That's not the point of the game, but it's all over and it's kinda bullshit. Picking 50 locks a day at the apartments in order to level your security skill is a famous example. I'd like to fix this.

Yeah, I can agree that grinding has become a major part of the game. Along with security, same thing can be said for loitering a government office for months on end and become SEAL Team 6 tier stealthy.

I like that stealth is a thing and I think it's fun to do, but I don't like that you grind it up in order to turn on godmode where you can act with impunity. I think about possible solutions. I have some ideas for lockpicking already, but I'm interested in suggestions on either.

Lockpicking: frankly, that's effectively peaked at 12-13, because at that level you can fairly reliably crack safes (and they're grind-resistant thanks to being one-attempt per raid, and the theft charge regardless of success).  Having lockpicking take enough time to affect the site alarm once it's started (so picking locks once you've entered a secure area) might not hurt, but you may have implemented that already.

Stealth: Possibly the same thing that caps lockpicking: have it only train when there's a significant chance of failure (or on a failure).  That should prevent serious overleveling.  (Talking to critters is at 15 Heart now: that's achievable by most Liberals.  18-20 is tougher.)

Thought: repeatedly hitting sites ought to have a greater effect on the heat there.
     Extreme example: IRL, someone goes to the White House and loiters around the public area two days in a row, the USSS will notice.  Having the place start at Conservatives Suspicious would help that.  (I've been on the public tour, and managed to get a group tour of the West Wing.  Security there likes to be proactive.)  If you're wanted for anything that's got scariness, they'd probably get *ping*'d about it when you go through security.  Facial-recognition, ID scan, etc.

Hacking being more dangerous is fine, though I'd appreciate being able to aim the hackers a bit.  Having 'em tell the Pentagon that we hacked 'em gets annoying.
Forex:
"Gather evidence": focuses on getting printable items, avoiding actively leaving LCS markers reduces detection risk;
"Create havoc": actively disrupts and vandalizes sites, looking for big targets such as military & CIA, greater Juice/impact but increases detection risk;
 "Direct advocacy": focuses on posting Disturbing Information to directly affect public information; no strong impact on detection as increased communication countered by lower-powered targets;
"Hack Liberally": the current hacking priorities.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2014, 04:50:18 am »

Used a quick and dirty solution to the amount of grinding inherent in levelling lockpicking and stealth simply by increasing the experience gains on those skills by a factor of about ten. You'll still send people to the apartments to practice their lockpicking, but they'll level up after a couple doors, rather than clearing multiple floors before leveling up. Similar for stealth and disguise practice. This might sound extreme, but I feel pretty confident it'll feel normal and fine before long.

I've also tripled the "multiple liberals" stealth penalty, and increased the difficulty of stealth and disguise checks after you start committing crimes on site.

Heat and Secrecy have been simplified. When Heat is greater than Secrecy, you risk raids. This risk is much greater, but when Secrecy > Heat, you are 100% safe from raids. Raids happen more promptly when they are triggered. When heat is greater than 100%, you will be raided within the week, guaranteed, does not matter the safehouse. Lots of under-the-hood math changes to rates of heat changes, but "less complicated" and "easier to intuit" are the jist of it. One notable change is that Secrecy will no longer change based on the number of Liberals in the safehoue.

Heat also doesn't just increase indefinitely. Liberals cool off over time and their safehouse will cool off too if the Liberals inside are less hot than the safehouse -- so a 60% heat safehouse can cool to 50% if your Liberals are only capable of generating 50% heat, and if you keep those Liberals out of trouble that number will keep decreasing until it hits 0.

I increased the difficulty of avoiding detection when hacking. Too far? In my new tests with the revised Heat system and taking an all-A founder from 0 to 200 juice with Hacking alone, I get raided before I hit 60 juice. Of course, that's sitting in the Homeless shelter; those raids happened at about 25% heat. If you're hacking from a 60-70% secrecy safehouse, you're going to have a lot more luck.

I also made some tweaks to some of the new features in the development builds, with prison messages and showing your ledger each month. Mostly to keep spammy messages down if everyone is in prison.
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Cheedows

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2014, 10:08:17 am »

Interesting choices Fox, but great nonetheless. Depends on how much you increased the difficulty of site checks though, since a lone liberal with uber stats still sounds god/superhero tier. The heat changes sound interesting, but I think that some crimes should increase heat indefinitely in small amounts. For example, someone who amounts to the Unabomber blowing up nuclear reactors everyday of the week, assassinating key CEOs, shooting up the Intelligence Agency will always be sought for by the conservative government.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2014, 11:25:52 am »

You might also give lockpicking the chance of increasing Conservative Suspicion.

Currently, you can (and should) attempt to unlock all the doors on all the levels of an apartment complex without any risk of conservative alarm, because the suspicion is only triggered by entering the apartments, not by the lockpicking itself.

Try that in real life, and see how long it takes for someone to confront you.

Adding the risk of being caught would reduce the boredom of lockpick grinding runs.  I generally steal something on my runs, just for the fun of fleeing.

Casei

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2014, 01:24:52 pm »

I increased the difficulty of avoiding detection when hacking. Too far? In my new tests with the revised Heat system and taking an all-A founder from 0 to 200 juice with Hacking alone, I get raided before I hit 60 juice. Of course, that's sitting in the Homeless shelter; those raids happened at about 25% heat. If you're hacking from a 60-70% secrecy safehouse, you're going to have a lot more luck.

I think it's a good compromise for the hacks.
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KA101

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2014, 06:22:41 pm »

OK, so now I need to hack even less if I want to avoid my people getting caught?  Lovely.

You might also give lockpicking the chance of increasing Conservative Suspicion.

Currently, you can (and should) attempt to unlock all the doors on all the levels of an apartment complex without any risk of conservative alarm, because the suspicion is only triggered by entering the apartments, not by the lockpicking itself.

Try that in real life, and see how long it takes for someone to confront you.

Adding the risk of being caught would reduce the boredom of lockpick grinding runs.  I generally steal something on my runs, just for the fun of fleeing.

And if you pick with someone there, yeah, they will confront you!  Picked doors might start a suspicion timer, sure, but a random chance of "oops, someone unavoidably appeared and busted you when you were picking, nothing you could have done to prevent it" seems more annoying than worthwhile.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Will you help me to understand the state of LCS?
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2014, 07:15:54 pm »

I added detection to lockpicking that is similar to what happens when you steal something off the ground; you start doing disguise/steath checks upon encountering Conservatives thereafter, and after 50 turns or so they'll get suspicious. To better distinguish this from smashing doors open, which already did this (though with a much shorter 'fuse' on the suspicious timer), I made smashing doors in cause the "conservatives suspicious" status to happen immediately. Because really, you just loudly broke a door down in a populated building. People are going to start getting edgy and looking for trouble right away.

Picked doors might start a suspicion timer, sure, but a random chance of "oops, someone unavoidably appeared and busted you when you were picking, nothing you could have done to prevent it" seems more annoying than worthwhile.

Although lockpicking will now put you into "you have started committing crimes" mode, I do not plan to make it immediately risky in that sense.

OK, so now I need to hack even less if I want to avoid my people getting caught?  Lovely.

Depends on tuning, but systematically it should be a lot easier to manage with the revisions to how Heat works. The downtown apartments or business front will give you immunity to heat as long as heat is under 60%, which is actually a fairly high amount, since I reduced the rate at which heat accumulates and increased the rate at which it decays off of Liberals. If you have a group of five hackers all picking up heat from major hacks on a continual basis, you will probably get raided no matter what safehouse you're in, but a solo hacker shouldn't be too hard to manage heat on unless they're hacking from, like, the homeless shelter, which offers 0% secrecy.

Hacking is a weird thing because it's extremely powerful despite the fact that it takes place from the safety of your base. It generates a substantial amount of a juice, has mild to moderate public opinion impacts, and generates rare items that can be converted into big public opinion swings or briefcases of cash without any additional risk (unless Free Speech is C+, which makes any Guardian activities risky). Previously, the "leave slogans all over a military site" and "break into CIA networks" were the only major hacks that had a real risk of detection; the other 8 hacks, like those that picked up rare items, had detection avoidance difficulties that were actually lower than the threshhold for doing the hack. Which means a solo hacker literally could not get caught doing them; if I were to take the old hacking detection difficulties and let you target only safe hacks, there would be no choice to be made in the decision of whether or not to use hacking because it would be completely overpowered.

Depends on how much you increased the difficulty of site checks though, since a lone liberal with uber stats still sounds god/superhero tier. The heat changes sound interesting, but I think that some crimes should increase heat indefinitely in small amounts. For example, someone who amounts to the Unabomber blowing up nuclear reactors everyday of the week, assassinating key CEOs, shooting up the Intelligence Agency will always be sought for by the conservative government.

I'm generally okay with stealth being very strong on high level solo Liberals; a big price you're implicitly paying there is bringing only one person on a mission.

If you're doing major raids frequently, the heat on your Liberals will continue to accumulate due to the ongoing addition of new charges, and the safehouse heat will pile up. Eventually you'll either get randomly raided or hit 100% heat and trigger an automatic raid. The "no indefinite accumulation" thing will only apply when you take a break; you won't need to abandon a safehouse temporarily to let it cool off, just laying low for a bit should be enough. Unless you're so hot that the safehouse overheats and gets raided before your Liberals can cool off, but the cooling process should be much more noticeable than it was before.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 07:21:30 pm by Jonathan S. Fox »
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