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Author Topic: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?  (Read 12409 times)

Pirate Bob

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Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« on: July 21, 2014, 12:02:07 am »
[Edit - DISCLAIMER - it does not actually appear that there is any significant difference in the power of ranged weapons in 40.XX vs 34.11.  I had heard rumors that they were, but so far all tests show them to be equal.  If you have evidence of differences, I am VERY interested]

I heard some rumors that ranged weapons are even more deadly in this version than the last, so I decided to do some testing, following the methods outlined in this thread  Here are some initial results, and I will try to update with more details as I complete more testing.

1) Initial results suggest there is no change the the protection armor offers against projectiles, as outlined on the wiki here.  For vanilla DF, this is somewhat irrelevant as plate armor offers absolutely no protection, but by adjusting the raws for [SHOOT_FORCE] of crossbows I found that the force required to pierce adamantium armor with copper bolts is unchanged since 34.11:
Spoiler: Copper Bolts vs. Addy Armor (click to show/hide)
[Edit - in vanilla DF SHOOT_FORCE is 1000, which is over 10 times what can be blocked by even adamantine armor.  The crazily high forces combined with tiny contact area render plate armor useless against projectiles in both 34.11 and 40.03]

As an aside, this deflection vs. force curve has an interesting kink in it.  These results are for shooting at custom creatures with only an upper and lower body:
Spoiler: Arena Blob (click to show/hide)
and for some reason deflections occur off the upper body at a higher force than the lower body, as illustrated by repeating the experiment with the breastplate removed and the blobs wearing only greaves:
Spoiler: Only Greaves (click to show/hide)
I thought maybe this was because greaves have different layer thickness than breastplates, so I copied all the properies of breastplates to greaves and repeated, but obtained the same result (the "uniform" dataset), so I am puzzled as to what is causing the difference.  Anyhow, back to the main point.

2) The rate of fire for crossbows and bows seems to be much higher in this version than the last one.  As far as I can tell, ranged weapons fire as the same speed as melee attacks in 40.03, while they were much slower in 34.11.  I have not quantified this yet, but significantly increasing the rate of fire definitely would make ranged weapons (even more) deadly.
[Edit - my initial testing does NOT show a significant difference in fire rate between 40.03 and 34.11.  It appears that melee attacks are roughly twice as fast as ranged attacks in both versions, but this is very hard to quantify as melee attacks by the AI are quite variable.  In any case, it's not a major difference].

3)  Ranged weapons can now completely destroy body parts using the pulping mechanics (at least I assume this is what's going on).  In my tests, I found that body parts could be "mostly cut away" or "cloven asunder", which both are fatal to Arena Blobs.  This caused the majority of Blob targets to be killed in tests where deflection was not 100%, while no blobs were killed at any forces tested (up to F=128) in 34.11.  It is not clear how this would impact the deadliness of bolts under vanilla conditions, as I believe these mechanics require the same part to be stuck multiple times, and most living creatures will give in to pain/bleed to death before a single body part is struck repeatedly.  However maybe at high force a single bolt hit can now cleave body parts?  This will be my next line of investigation.

Anyhow, I would like to do a lot more testing of this, but my time is somewhat limited as I have a 1 month old baby (who currently wants to be fed).  If anyone else is interested in pursuing this, I have a library of perl scripts and DF macros that I use for running automated large scale testing in the arena, which I would be happy to share.  They are set up to run on Linux, but it should be relatively easy to convert them to Windows if needed.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 10:38:07 am by Pirate Bob »
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2014, 12:46:28 am »
Quick update - I found it took 1319 hits to kill 72 dwarves (18.3 per dwarf) using vanilla conditions on 40.03, and 1420 (19.7 per dwarf) in 34.11.  All dwarves were wearing full adamantium plate armor, which provided no protection at all against the incoming copper bolts.

It is not clear if the difference between 40.03 and 34.11 is significant.  I will have to test a larger sample to see, and more carefully analyze the logs.  I did notice that body parts were sometimes "cloven asunder", but this appeared to be mainly small things like fingers and eyes, which I don't think would cause speedier death.

Bottom line - if there is a difference in deadliness per shot, it is small.  The major difference is in rate of fire, which is huge (at least that's my impression).  I will try to quantify the rate of fire difference next.  I'm not really sure how to do this - suggestions would be appreciated.  My current idea is to measure how many shots I take with a marksdwarf I control, and how many melee attacks an opponent makes in the same period.  I can adjust the materials/raws so that both melee and ranged attacks are harmless. 

The pulping of body parts is likely to make a larger difference against undead targets, as it was intended.  Clearly it is possible to destroy body parts with ranged attacks, which I assume would kill undead creatures (although I do not know how to test this in the arena).  Living creatures are likely to bleed to death, suffocate or get shot in the head before any important body parts become pulped.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 12:50:27 am by Pirate Bob »
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Murphy

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2014, 01:29:25 am »
Why does plate mail not offer any protection?
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Melting Sky

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2014, 01:46:36 am »
Projectiles are very effective at piercing armor due to their extremely small contact areas. Here's a quick cut and paste from the wiki that explains it.

When a projectile strikes armor, there are several possible outcomes:

    Conversion of edged damage to blunt damage (chain mail does this).
    The projectile absorbs the force of the collision, and is deflected.
    The armor absorbs all or part of the force of the blow.
    The armor is fractured and does nothing to stop the projectile.

For armor to be at all effective at stopping projectiles, the armor material must have SHEAR_YIELD and/or SHEAR_FRACTURE greater than or equal to the projectile material. Otherwise, the projectile just cuts through the armor like it isn’t there. Additionally, the IMPACT_FRACTURE of the armor must be large relative to the projectile momentum, or the armor fractures and the projectile passes through without slowing down significantly (this happens for metal bolts against any plate armor in 0.34.11).

Conversion of Edged Damage to Blunt Damage:

If the momentum of the projectile is not too high, then chain armor can convert the edged damage normally caused by projectiles to blunt damage, resulting in chips, fractures, jams and bruises, but no tears or cuts. Plate armor does not appear to provide this type of protection under any conditions tested so far. It is not yet known how the momentum needed for edged damage to penetrate chain armor is calculated, but for the cases examined the momentum needed is many times larger than those observed for in-game projectiles.

If you want protection from projectile attacks then stick with chain armor. Plate armor provides protection from blunt damage such as mace and hammer attacks.
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therahedwig

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 04:38:10 am »
Quote
If you want protection from projectile attacks then stick with chain armor. Plate armor provides protection from blunt damage such as mace and hammer attacks.

This makes sense, historically at the least. Chainmail became popular because it would protect against basic ranged attacks.

Add to this that medieval soldiers would also wear Doublets underneath their armour:
A doublet was a cloth jacket, worn underneath the armour initially to protect against the chaving of armour, but then becoming thicker and layered to give more protection against blunt attacks and the like. They were pretty effective(to the point that poorer soldiers could afford to use it as their only armour).

The full-armour setup of a knight around the fifteenth century involved a layering of Doublet-Chainmail-Plate, and it was succesful enough to make the English Longbowmen as notorious as they became when they proved effective against full-armoured knights.

So I guess the answer is 'your dwarves armour is shitty', but then, what would the best armoured dwarf in vanilla df be like anyhow? (Also, note that doublets were made out of wool or plant cloth. Considering silk is much more readily availeble in DF, what would a GCS silk doublet do for your dqarves? (If you can figure out the layering...)
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martinuzz

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2014, 04:54:10 am »
I think the only viable defense against projectiles in DF is legendary+ shield user. Unless that has been nerfed.
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Repseki

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2014, 05:36:04 am »
Will Dwarves bat projectiles out of the air with their weapons, or is that only mining picks?
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thvaz

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2014, 06:42:40 am »
Quote from: Repseki on July 21, 2014, 05:36:04 am
Will Dwarves bat projectiles out of the air with their weapons, or is that only mining picks?

They will, however it is pretty rare even with legendary levels of skill.
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2014, 07:14:31 am »
Quote from: Melting Sky on July 21, 2014, 01:46:36 am
Projectiles are very effective at piercing armor due to their extremely small contact areas. Here's a quick cut and paste from the wiki that explains it.
This is exactly right.  The contact area of bolts and arrows is (and has been for a while) only 2.  This means that even adamantine plate armor provides no protection from them.  For example, wood bolts (density about 600) have a mass of 0.09.  Since this is less than 1, they are fired at SHOOT_MAXVEL=1000, and have a momentum of 1000*0.09 = 90. 

The maximum momentum bolt which can be stopped by armor is about (from the wiki page, ignoring armor user skill and quality)
Code: [Select]
momentum = (IF-IY/2)*round100(C*S)/(2400000) where for adamantium
IF=IMPACT_FRACTURE=5000000
IY=IMPACT_YIELD=5000000
C=CONTACT_AREA (of the bolt) = 2
S=LAYER_SIZE (of the armor) = 15 or 20 (depending on which piece)
round100(C*S) = 100, because C*S is less than 100
(IF-IY/2)*round100(C*S)/(2400000) = 104

Meaning adamantine armor can stop bolts with momentum up to 104, and can just barely stop wood bolts (momentum 90).  All other armor cannot stop even wood, and adamantine cannot stop any metal bolts.

Quote from: Melting Sky on July 21, 2014, 01:46:36 am
If you want protection from projectile attacks then stick with chain armor.
Also mostly correct.  Chain armor will convert edged damage to blunt damage, meaning that instead of causing tears and bleeding bolts will chip bones and bruise internal organs.  In fort mode, chain armor is good enough protection, as if one of your dwarves passes out from a chipped bone the rest of your army can probably save him.  In adventure mode there is nothing that can save you from ranged attacks, other than maybe this
Quote from: martinuzz on July 21, 2014, 04:54:10 am
I think the only viable defense against projectiles in DF is legendary+ shield user. Unless that has been nerfed.

Quote from: Melting Sky on July 21, 2014, 01:46:36 am
Plate armor provides protection from blunt damage such as mace and hammer attacks.
This however, is not quite correct.  Edged weapons with larger contact areas definitely can be deflected by plate armor.  I believe it follows a similar mechanism as ranged weapons, but I haven't done extensive testing and don't know how "forces" are calculated for melee attacks.  Anyhow, things like axes and sword slashes can be stopped, but I'm not sure about say spear points (contact area 20).  I believe these could be stopped at least sometimes by steel/candy armor, but I haven't confirmed this.  [Edit - even copper armor appears to deflect stabs from (copper) spears most, if not all, of the time.  This further illustrates how silly ranged weapons are right now - armor which gives 100% protection against all melee attacks should at least do something against ranged attacks.  On that note, does anyone know of a melee attack which is not deflected by armor (provided it meets the material requirements explained below?)]

One other important detail - armor ONLY has an effect if it is made of a material with SHEAR_YIELD and/or SHEAR_FRACTURE equal or better to the weapon, where adamantium>steel>iron=bronze>copper>silver>wood.  Otherwise it does nothing.  This goes for both plate and chain armor, and melee and ranged attacks.

I feel that the wiki page (which I mostly wrote) may not explain this clearly enough.  Maybe I need some plots or something?  Suggestions would be appreciated...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 10:22:33 am by Pirate Bob »
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SanDiego

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2014, 07:39:46 am »
Not research, but a simple obserevation - in 40.01 I witnessed a bowgoblin emty his entire load of arrrows into a single capybara, before he went and finished the poor creature in close combat. He was carrying copper bow and arrows.
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2014, 09:01:27 am »
Quote from: SanDiego on July 21, 2014, 07:39:46 am
Not research, but a simple obserevation - in 40.01 I witnessed a bowgoblin emty his entire load of arrrows into a single capybara, before he went and finished the poor creature in close combat. He was carrying copper bow and arrows.
Did the goblin empty his quiver *into* the capybara, or just *at* it?  Small creatures are very hard to hit with ranged weapons, so my guess is he didn't hit it at all.  If you think he actually hit it, then I will have to put this on my list of future !!SCIENCE!!.  Also, that cat disturbs me. 

Back to the main point, my testing thus far has revealed no significant differences in ranged weapons between 34.11 and 40.03.  I had thought that the fire rate was now faster, but in one-on-one combat in the arena a marksdwarf that I controlled was attacked by a melee opponent roughly twice as often as he fired bolts in both versions, so there does not appear to be a significant difference.  Has anyone observed a difference in ranged weapons in the new version, and if so can you describe it?

One thought I have is that maybe the new line-of-sight mechanics have made the existing problems with ranged weapons more noticeable, especially in fort mode?  To explain, I made a slightly fort with 34.11 modded so that steel armor would deflect projectiles roughly 50% of the time (instead of never).  I then played for many years, and many sieges.  In all this time, I *NEVER* observed a deflection off any of my trained military, as they never got hit by projectiles.  Some of the new recruits got hit a few times, but the legendaries are so good at blocking and dodging that they almost never get hit.  In the new version, I believe that any attack from outside a units cone of sight will be treated as "from behind", and cannot be blocked or dodged.  This means that your legendary fighters are much more likely to be hit (and brutally maimed) by ranged weapons.  I have not yet tested this (and won't likely have time to), but it seems likely.  Can anyone confirm or disprove this?

Bottom line, it looks like ranged weapons are exactly as (over)powerful as they were before.  The issues just might be more noticeable in fort mode now.  In 34.11 fort mode, the power of ranged weapons was balanced by the fact they rarely hit their targets.  In adventure mode, they were always extremely frustrating, for (at least) 3 reasons:
1)  You are often fighting outnumbered, in the open, and surrounded.  This dramatically increases the number of ranged hits you take, and may result in hits from behind.
2)  You don't get to train your adventurer to legendary levels before he sees real combat, so his shield user/dodge skills are not high enough to block all incoming fire.
3)  There is no backup.  If your adventurer passes out from a chipped bone etc, it is very unlikely that your companions will win the fight and save him.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 09:04:05 am by Pirate Bob »
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Bloax

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2014, 10:28:55 am »
One of the biggest issues with ranged combat is the fact that getting a bone hit on anything is extremely easy and makes anything instantly pass out in vanilla due to the absurd amount of pain receptors.

and mind you this isn't a momentary drop to the floor, this is a very lengthy loss of consciousness
which also means that whatever chipped the bone gets a lot of free shots
which means more pain
which means more passing out
which means more shots
which means more pain
which means that you are dead, kiddo
dead
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 10:31:31 am by Bloax »
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2014, 10:41:25 am »
Quote from: Bloax on July 21, 2014, 10:28:55 am
One of the biggest issues with ranged combat is the fact that getting a bone hit on anything is extremely easy and makes anything instantly pass out in vanilla due to the absurd amount of pain receptors.

and mind you this isn't a momentary drop to the floor, this is a very lengthy loss of consciousness
which also means that whatever chipped the bone gets a lot of free shots
which means more pain
which means more passing out
which means more shots
which means more pain
which means that you are dead, kiddo
dead
Yes, all of that.  Particularly in adventure mode, where there is no backup squad to come rescue you.  In adventure mode, if you get hit with a projectile, you are almost always dead.  And chainmail really doesn't help, as you still get just as many chipped and broken bones through chainmail (chainmail just converts edged damage to blunt, which causes all the broken bones).
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FallenAngel

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2014, 12:18:55 pm »
It does seem easier to reflect them with shields, however.
Playing adventure mode, I encountered a Goblin Bowman who shot all but 2 of his copper arrows at me before trying to flee.
All of those arrows would have hit me if I didn't block with my shield, with some help from batting them out of the air (ninja dwarves) and simple dodging.
Note that I was a Proficient Shield User and Dodger.
I was unscathed.
Only one or two of the arrows actually missed without my interference.
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SanDiego

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Re: Dwarven Research: Ranged Weapons Even More Powerful in 40.XX?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 12:54:37 pm »
Quote from: Pirate Bob on July 21, 2014, 09:01:27 am
Quote from: SanDiego on July 21, 2014, 07:39:46 am
Not research, but a simple obserevation - in 40.01 I witnessed a bowgoblin emty his entire load of arrrows into a single capybara, before he went and finished the poor creature in close combat. He was carrying copper bow and arrows.
Did the goblin empty his quiver *into* the capybara, or just *at* it?  Small creatures are very hard to hit with ranged weapons, so my guess is he didn't hit it at all.  If you think he actually hit it, then I will have to put this on my list of future !!SCIENCE!!.  Also, that cat disturbs me. 
The cat knows what you did.
I didn't read the logs carefully, but SoundSense implied that the animal was hit. The capybara was already unconcious and severely wounded, but alive.
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Quote from: kefkakrazy on November 18, 2013, 08:01:50 pm
Welcome to Murdermachines. Try the gecko sauce; it's delectable and delightful, a wonderful blend of savory and spicy that makes any dish delicious without being too overwhelming.

(Warning: Do not ask about the manufacturing process for gecko sauce)
(Warning: Gecko sauce may cause acute respiratory failure on contact)
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