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[thvaz]

I think you are ignoring how complex the calculations are. It is not something as simple as "this has 80% chance of piercing, that has 20%". As far as I know, there are many factors involved, like the skill of the shooter, the distance from the target, the material of both the bolts and the armor, and the angle the bolt hit the armor, and probably some more I ignore.

edit 1: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6262 is fixed for next version!
edit 2: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6870 is fixed too!!!

[Urist Da Vinci]

I think you are ignoring how complex the calculations are. It is not something as simple as "this has 80% chance of piercing, that has 20%". As far as I know, there are many factors involved, like the skill of the shooter, the distance from the target, the material of both the bolts and the armor, and the angle the bolt hit the armor, and probably some more I ignore.

edit 1: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6262 is fixed for next version!
edit 2: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6870 is fixed too!!!

Given those bug fixes, I suggest everyone wait and see what the ranged weapon balance is like for 0.40.05.

Also: yay! research pays off with a bug fix!

[Pirate Bob]

I think you are ignoring how complex the calculations are. It is not something as simple as "this has 80% chance of piercing, that has 20%". As far as I know, there are many factors involved, like the skill of the shooter, the distance from the target, the material of both the bolts and the armor, and the angle the bolt hit the armor, and probably some more I ignore.

edit 1: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6262 is fixed for next version!
edit 2: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6870 is fixed too!!!

Huzzah!  Let there be much rejoicing!!

In our previous testing, range to target, bolt/crossbow quality and shooter skill did not have a significant impact.  However as Urist says we will have to see what happens with the next release and the new fixes.  I can't wait!

[cephalo]

So I'm messing around with a practice fort, and it occurs to me that before we encouraged the damage bugs to be fixed, we would have been better served to get the whole assigning ammunition kerfuffle fixed. You still can't use wood/bone bolts for training and metal bolts for combat, so really, we are kindof stuck having no control over what ammo is used for either. It was nice to just make bone bolts and use those for everything, since it worked. Hopefully bone bolts will still be somewhat effective.

[Urist Da Vinci]

So I'm messing around with a practice fort, and it occurs to me that before we encouraged the damage bugs to be fixed, we would have been better served to get the whole assigning ammunition kerfuffle fixed. You still can't use wood/bone bolts for training and metal bolts for combat, so really, we are kindof stuck having no control over what ammo is used for either. It was nice to just make bone bolts and use those for everything, since it worked. Hopefully bone bolts will still be somewhat effective.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4530

[thvaz]

I'm eager to test ranged weapons after the fixes. Where are you, 0.40.05?

[Melting Sky]

I think you are ignoring how complex the calculations are. It is not something as simple as "this has 80% chance of piercing, that has 20%". As far as I know, there are many factors involved, like the skill of the shooter, the distance from the target, the material of both the bolts and the armor, and the angle the bolt hit the armor, and probably some more I ignore.

edit 1: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6262 is fixed for next version!
edit 2: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6870 is fixed too!!!

Given those bug fixes, I suggest everyone wait and see what the ranged weapon balance is like for 0.40.05.

Also: yay! research pays off with a bug fix!

Thanks for all the work you've done on this.   

[thvaz]

Adamantine armor deflects iron bolts!!!

edit: in fact Adamantine and Steel armor now are impervious to bolts. (all tests done with Adequate skill)

Adamantine armor: impervious to any bolt, at any range (plate deflects all the bolts, mail turns the damage to blunt)
Steel armor: impervious to any bolt, at any range(plate deflects all the bolts, mail turns the damage to blunt)
Iron armor: It is always penetrated by steel. Iron bolts cause blunt damage even through plate.

Didn't test other kinds.

[cephalo]

Adamantine armor deflects iron bolts!!!

edit: in fact Adamantine and Steel armor now are impervious to bolts. (all tests done with Adequate skill)

Adamantine armor: impervious to any bolt, at any range (plate deflects all the bolts, mail turns the damage to blunt)
Steel armor: impervious to any bolt, at any range(plate deflects all the bolts, mail turns the damage to blunt)
Iron armor: It is always penetrated by steel. Iron bolts cause blunt damage even through plate.

Didn't test other kinds.

Doesn't really sound like a fix to me. Going from ignoring armor to being utterly defeated in every case by armor is an over-correction.

I suppose bone and wood bolts don't penetrate any kind of armor now right? That would be fine if we could use them for training and better ones for combat, but that isn't working.

[thvaz]

Toady said that now that the bugs are fixed is a matter of balancing and fine tuning. You aren't completely impervious with steel and adamantine either because there are parts that aren't protected by armors at the moment.

[cephalo]

Here's an interesting vid. The description of the video is also very interesting. The armor is very effective at protecting the wearer, but also takes enormous damage from the arrows that make later penetrations much easier. Supposedly these are from unsharpened arrows at low draw weights.

It would sure be a pain to have to replace armor after every battle, I should be careful what I ask for.

[thvaz]

Toady said sometime ago that the system will be always a little weird until he implements armor and weapon damage, so I think it is on the way...someday.

[Pirate Bob]

Adamantine armor deflects iron bolts!!!

edit: in fact Adamantine and Steel armor now are impervious to bolts. (all tests done with Adequate skill)

Adamantine armor: impervious to any bolt, at any range (plate deflects all the bolts, mail turns the damage to blunt)
Steel armor: impervious to any bolt, at any range(plate deflects all the bolts, mail turns the damage to blunt)
Iron armor: It is always penetrated by steel. Iron bolts cause blunt damage even through plate.

Didn't test other kinds.

I have done my own testing, posted here, which confirms these results.  One further point - while steel mail does convert edged to blunt, it is *not* totally effective at preventing serious injuries, while adamantine mail is.  Hits against body parts protected by steel mail will frequently result in chipped or broken bones, or jamming of parts through other parts, all of which tend to incapacitate the victim (due to pain).  I'm not sure why adamantine mail is more effective, but this definitely bears further investigation, as I think if anything adamantine was less effective as mail previously.

I also agree that this is meant to be a rough, temporary system, and that it is exceptionally good as such.  Adamantine provides nearly complete protection, steel very good protection, and everything else nothing.  I think historical arguments would support that nothing less strong than steel could stop a bolt/arrow from a powerful bow.  I would eventually like to see a system where lesser armors could stop hits if they occur at a glancing angle, or something like this, but for now I think this is great!  I am working on doing a complete characterization of the new combat/armor system, and will post results as they become available (I have my computer automated to run large-scale tests in the arena, but this still takes time).  This should hopefully allow people who aren't totally satisfied with the current system to mod it as desired, although I think the number of dissatisfied people will be far lower with these new changes.  Also, if anyone is interested in helping run tests or has suggestions for what should be tested, I would greatly welcome help.

[Untelligent]

Here's an interesting vid. The description of the video is also very interesting. The armor is very effective at protecting the wearer, but also takes enormous damage from the arrows that make later penetrations much easier. Supposedly these are from unsharpened arrows at low draw weights.

It would sure be a pain to have to replace armor after every battle, I should be careful what I ask for.

Equipment damage was originally slated for the 0.31.01 update, but was left out in the interest of jesus-this-patch-is-taking-a-long-time. It'll come eventually.

[Bloax]

Before equipment damage comes into play it would be a good idea to have more weapon/armor shops were more prevalent than they currently are, along with commissioning armor of your size being A Thing.
Naturally you would then also be able to shell out some cash to repair your gear in the respective shops.