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[Cheeetar]

Spoiler: Irony Owl (click to show/hide)

Cheeetar:

No- the questions I'd already asked about my role were sufficient. I'm not going to ask Webadict to spell things out for me because I'm fairly sure the uncertainty of what exactly happened is on purpose.

I see. Is there a point at which you will be more forthcoming about what exactly you think happened?

Sure, and that point isn't now.

So a townie should be eager to die because then the people who voted him would be suspicious...? I reject that. I'm not a jester- I have no desire to be lynched. If me being lynched aids the town later, huzzah, but I'm not planning for it to happen.

A townie should be eager to die if the only way to kill him is either the town's will or something scum have to reveal themselves to do.

For instance, you claim to be highly suspicious of flabort for doing that to you, yes? So even if he'd hammered you outright, might it be fair to say that'd have been an excellent trade and that you were glad he'd outed himself to do it? Or would you still bemoan dying even though you didn't want to, because all that was accomplished was making flabort look suspicious?

In fact, let me ask you this: Are you glad flabort did what he did?

In hindsight? Of course I'm glad he did what he did- he killed a SK ally and he outed himself as scum (in my eyes) because of his terrible reasoning for what he did.

I hope that second part isn't intended to be an answer to my third question. "Killing someone else to save my own scummy hide is understandable because I wanted to live!" could be applied to anyone at any time. Would you view tying the vote to save yourself as understandable as well? Vigkilling someone for the sole reason that they might drive a lynch on you tomorrow? Driving a lynch on someone because they suspect you and therefore might in some way lead to your death at some point?

Speaking of which, what about Shakerag? If he'd gotten on first and hammered you instead, what would your reaction be if we all went "Well that was perfectly understandable. Now to lynch flabort for giving him the opportunity!"

No, my reaction would've been- I probably would've done the same in that circumstance, and now I'm going to lynch Flabort not for giving him the opportunity, but for putting him in the circumstance where it was suicide or lynching somebody else. I didn't get an 'opportunity' to lynch someone. I was essentially forced to- it was me or him.

So I take it your answer to all of the above scenarios is "yes?" Even while town and thinking somebody else is town, any danger to yourself is a you or them scenario, right? And not just a you or them scenario, but an immediate you or them scenario; can't give town time to discuss it or anything like that. Gotta survive.

I'm sure you're really town.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to assume that nobody will vote for me. A lack of belief in the fact that every single person in the game (including Shakerag) would not take the opportunity to kill me is not exactly an indicator that I'm scum.

No, he couldn't've. The way I see it, he could put X number of votes on two people - that is, both people would receive the same amount of votes from him. So if he set it to 9 it would've tied the day.

Mm. Possibly. Let's ask him about it too.


flabort: Did your one-shot target two or up to two targets? What would have happened if you applied an uneven number of votes to each, or tried to vote additional targets?

There's absolutely no way he would lie for his own benefit here!
My conclusion was drawn based on how he described his abilities prior and how they worked- no, I don't know exactly, but I'd hope you'd at least consider what I've said and how things rather than immediately discounting it and going to Flabort for the answer.

[Cheeetar]

If we lynch Flabort, someone will have to night kill him or day kill him to stop him coming back. But frankly, I don't see Wuba giving scum an insta-hammer ability like that.

Do you believe Flabort has a regenerating resurrect?

[IronyOwl]

Spoiler: Cheeetar (click to show/hide)

So a townie should be eager to die because then the people who voted him would be suspicious...? I reject that. I'm not a jester- I have no desire to be lynched. If me being lynched aids the town later, huzzah, but I'm not planning for it to happen.

A townie should be eager to die if the only way to kill him is either the town's will or something scum have to reveal themselves to do.

For instance, you claim to be highly suspicious of flabort for doing that to you, yes? So even if he'd hammered you outright, might it be fair to say that'd have been an excellent trade and that you were glad he'd outed himself to do it? Or would you still bemoan dying even though you didn't want to, because all that was accomplished was making flabort look suspicious?

In fact, let me ask you this: Are you glad flabort did what he did?

In hindsight? Of course I'm glad he did what he did- he killed a SK ally and he outed himself as scum (in my eyes) because of his terrible reasoning for what he did.

Then why wouldn't you be glad if Shakerag or one of his opportunistic buddies had outed himself as scum by hammering you?

I hope that second part isn't intended to be an answer to my third question. "Killing someone else to save my own scummy hide is understandable because I wanted to live!" could be applied to anyone at any time. Would you view tying the vote to save yourself as understandable as well? Vigkilling someone for the sole reason that they might drive a lynch on you tomorrow? Driving a lynch on someone because they suspect you and therefore might in some way lead to your death at some point?

Speaking of which, what about Shakerag? If he'd gotten on first and hammered you instead, what would your reaction be if we all went "Well that was perfectly understandable. Now to lynch flabort for giving him the opportunity!"

No, my reaction would've been- I probably would've done the same in that circumstance, and now I'm going to lynch Flabort not for giving him the opportunity, but for putting him in the circumstance where it was suicide or lynching somebody else. I didn't get an 'opportunity' to lynch someone. I was essentially forced to- it was me or him.

So I take it your answer to all of the above scenarios is "yes?" Even while town and thinking somebody else is town, any danger to yourself is a you or them scenario, right? And not just a you or them scenario, but an immediate you or them scenario; can't give town time to discuss it or anything like that. Gotta survive.

I'm sure you're really town.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to assume that nobody will vote for me. A lack of belief in the fact that every single person in the game (including Shakerag) would not take the opportunity to kill me is not exactly an indicator that I'm scum.

No, but caring so much about it is. I don't want to be lynched either, but I'm sure as hell not going to mislynch a townie just to stop it. You apparently would, ergo you're some variant of cowardly scum.

There's absolutely no way he would lie for his own benefit here!
My conclusion was drawn based on how he described his abilities prior and how they worked- no, I don't know exactly, but I'd hope you'd at least consider what I've said and how things rather than immediately discounting it and going to Flabort for the answer.

So you want me to accept your interpretation- remembering that you'd do absolutely anything to save yourself as well- over his claim. And not only that, but you're paranoid enough about me doing otherwise that you feel it wise to nip it in he bud right now and request that I at least consider your self-serving assumptions before going and doing something strange like asking him about it.

[Cheeetar]

Urgh. I'm not gonna quote all of that.

"I should be happy to be lynched because then people would lynch the person who lynched me"
No, I'm not going to plan to be lynched to prove that I was right.

"I am scum because I voted to lynch somebody rather than die myself."
No. I had no way of knowing what alignment he was, and spoiler alert: turned out to not be townie.

"You want me to believe you! Aha! I've caught you!"
Errr... I want you to at least consider my points. You're tunneling a bit much here.

[notquitethere]

I want to say that, in Cheetah's position, I'd probably have done the exact same thing. When you're hammer-tied and you don't know the alignment of the person you're tied with, hammering them is probably the right move regardless of your alignment.

[Nerjin]

Good morning America! Before we get started: Flabort I am no less suspicious of you than I was yesterday. In fact, your little move there has cemented the fact that you are a communist in my mind. But first, I must address a question that is quite important.

Nerjin, what was the power you attempted to use yesterday and why did you try to save Shakerag?

Why do you think? I believed him to be doing no wrong and felt that Flabort was simply trying to save their own skin. But I'll address that later. As President I issued a full pardon to Shakerag. Apparently however, if a hammer occurs I don't get to use that ability because... I'm too slow or something. It seems to limit what I'm capable of but then again a hammer is a rare thing.

I assure you that I will not use this ability unless I find it absolutely necessary. If the town wishes it, I can prevent all lynches [though I’d prefer not to] and if town wishes I can simply not issue pardons. I leave it up to town to decide. I consider this ability no longer mine. But towns.

Flabort: . . . congrats on killing an Sk ally. saving your own skin and luckily killing a SK Ally.

I fixed that for you.

Spoiler: Flabort – MUST READ (click to show/hide)

As for [why I used my ability the way I did], I knew that:
A) I would die for reals if I was voted that day after being daykilled, because my revive would not have time to recharge.

"I killed someone to save myself."

B) Someone having more votes on them then me would make me safe. Yes, this was incredibly self-serving, but I feel like my powers could help town. Less so now that I've actually claimed them, but I think they can still help; turning the night game against Scum into an excruciating game of "Did I or didn't I, and if I did where?". Night WIFOM vs Scum, if you will.

"Despite the fact that town found me suspicious anyways I would rather save myself and muddy the waters than let town learn information from the various cases on day one in a move that is actually rather detrimental to town and would paint the person who hammered as the bad guy and not myself"

C) I didn't want to be responsible for killing either of them if they wound up town.

This is a pure and simple lie. "I didn't kill officer, I simply pointed a gun at two people, dropped a knife between them, and told them to fight to the death. The death isn't MY fault."

E) I essentially presented the two of them with a variation on Prisoner's Dilemma. If one votes the other, they survive the day. If anyone else considered them scummy, though, they didn't. If they managed to each vote each other simultaneously (they didn't), they'd both survive due to it becoming a tie and no-lynch.

Except in a prisoner's dillema there are only two people who can get hurt. Here, you risked town simply getting stuck in a second day one while Communists and, apparently, a serial killer ran rampant. Don't act like you gave anyone a choice.

F) I didn't trust either of them.
G) Whoever cast the hammer vote would come under suspicion from the whole town.

This, RIGHT HERE, is why I believe you to be a communist! You are a fool and liar. You JUST admitted that you did it to throw suspicion off of yourself!

I see desperation, but not suspicion (is it possible to suspect yourself?) It was a choice between me (a confirmed townie to myself) and Shakerag dying. In such a time pressured moment, I didn't at all feel comfortable saying 'yes okay let's let any one person decide who should die here.'

Quick hammering Shakerag wasn't necessary for me to win, but it sure seems like it helped!

Maybe it did, but it means that you were the hang-man, the one with blood on your hands now.
Try living with that when it makes everyone suspicious of you.

Again, you think that because YOU put the noose around Shakerag's neck and almost literally FORCED someone else to pull the lever the rest of the way [you having already mostly pulled it] takes suspicion off of you and puts it on them. No, you orchestrated the kill. The blood is on your hands.

Spoiler: Irony (click to show/hide)

@Irony

Seeing as you see Flabort as equally suspicious for creating the situation- why do you view my reaction as more scummy than him setting it up?

He had the good sense to set it up but not actually fire. If he'd panicked all the way, he could have just hammered a target, any target, all on his own.

Which he would have done anyways if people decided not to vote for the two people he pointed the gun at. "Well I KNOW [person] is a communist so HAMMER VOTE! You'll see". You seem to think that if we hadn't played his game he would have left the votes as they were.

So a townie should be eager to die because then the people who voted him would be suspicious...? I reject that. I'm not a jester- I have no desire to be lynched. If me being lynched aids the town later, huzzah, but I'm not planning for it to happen.

A townie should be eager to die if the only way to kill him is either the town's will or something scum have to reveal themselves to do.

Except that it wasn't the town's will. It was merely flabort's will. Don't pretend that Flabort is some great patriot for flip-flopping on the issue. As I already said, it was Flabort's will that one of the two die.

Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)

@NQT

I'd rather lynch Toaster, who's yet to place a vote despite saying he will (ok, in fairness, the quicklynch probably happened before he got a chance). I want to see whether he's able to press a case today.

Oh please... Do you have anything to say about what's happening? How about, just a thought, you actually spend some time building a case that doesn't amount to "No vote? You get voted."

Perhaps, you could back this case up with... Evidence. Yes, I believe that's the word. Everyone else is making delightful cases based on what people have said. Maybe try that?

That’s all for now America [and Flabort]. I leave you, now, with one of my inspirational quotes: Associate with men of good quality, if you esteem your own reputation, for it is better to be alone, than in bad company

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

MBP: Are you an arsonist again?

Nah. While I wish I was ( because let's be clear, i can't think of a funner role, i was laughing histerically during the entirety of BYOR 4) i think that game showed that it waaay too powerfull. Silent triggerable mass kills ? Uncopable ? Kills undirectable/going trough protect? Scum wished they had all that sweet stuff.

And to bring it to Cheetar point, i mostly see it as a null tell. If you wanna keep playing, and you got a ability to allow you to doso, why the fuck not. You risk being unlucky and killing someone useful, but that didn't happen.


ALso Nerin, what's up with the pardon? Ability ? Presidential Flavor?

New Post:

Fair enough,

[Tiruin]

Tiruin:

> I've lost my Miller ability (...yeah.)

Per cycle or what? Permanently?

NQT
Brilliant design knowing my power. What was all that about knowing the name, by the way?

What?

*prods everyone with a stick*

Laaaaaaateeeeeeer.

1. I've totally no idea. I have the Filler thingy however that gives me a 50% chance to lose an ability per cycle.
I queried at Wuba on the exact details of it--still have to get an answer.
And about the miller thing? It just says I lost it O__O
So yeah. I'm not a miller now \o/
2. That's a cont. to D1. NQT kept on poking me about my power name and stuff like that. As of now, its a placeholder vote.

3. :I

Here's my case against Flabort: He claimed to be certain both me and Shakerag were scum, and that's why he essentially condemned one of us to death. He does not, however, want to be viewed as responsible for it- he wants everyone to say that I'm to blame for Shakerag's death. He made the situation occur, then blamed me for reacting rationally to it. He thinks I'm a scummy person for lynching a SK ally instead of letting myself die - however, he's perfectly towny for panicking at the sight of two votes and using his one-shot to OMGUS. Do note that his reasons for suspecting me so far had been 'that guy just doesn't sit right with me.'

I'm going to unvote Nerjin and vote Flabort in the hope that his resurrect was a one-shot. I do still however want Nerjin to explain his attempted saving of Shakerag.

Err, didn't he condemn both of you to death?

Tiruin, I already told you, I don't care what your ability was called (I don't have any power that targets ability names), I just wanted to know whether it fit with your theme (so I could judge how believable your miller claim was). If you suspected me of replacing your miller power with a filler power, then I'm not sure why you'd be voting me... did you want to be a miller?!

...unvote
>_> Like I wanted to be Miller. Oh yeees I did! No. <_<
It was more a vote-incentive to poke you because I'm busy reading up the thread as of late. What I'm wary of, now, is that a person is able to target (probably by knowing the name of the ability), an...ability and steal it. I'm biased by previous encounters with such shenanigans though.

Also how did you judge Unlucky fitting my theme? :I

MBP: You're Jiokuy, right?
What's your opinion regarding that usage of a one-shot in D1 that equals an insta-kill?

[Cheeetar]

he essentially condemned one of us to death.

Err, didn't he condemn both of you to death?

Well, there's one lynch per day- so, one of us. It could've been either of us, but only one could've died.

[Tiruin]

he essentially condemned one of us to death.

Err, didn't he condemn both of you to death?

Well, there's one lynch per day- so, one of us. It could've been either of us, but only one could've died.

Nothing says how many lynches can occur in the OP.
...
Though nothing says otherwise, too.

Webadict: Is this game restricted to One Lynch Per Day?

[Tiruin]

EBWOP
Wondered why another tab was open.

Tiruin I don't fully understand what you're saying but it's troubling me.

...Yeah, let's give me the finger without giving any more details than 'D: WAT U SAY'
>_>
It's troubling you, how.
Is that so easy to append?

PFP

[Tiruin]

Net is all >_<

Tiruin:

No, I have not played around with your role, or you.  I am not involved in whatever is happening with your abilities, but I am asking you about what you have said about what has happened.

Are you focused on this part of my pre-game statement?

I get to play with Tiruin.

I specifically said that because of what you said, just before it:

I get to play with Imp.

I added to what I said, yes.  I made the pre-game claim,

That's my role, by the way.  I sent in 'an imp that plays with Tiruin'.  *Rubs hands together*.

Lets see what I get!

That was meant as a joke, and was not the role I actually submitted to webadict this game.  Gamer's honor.

I know silly! I was also saying that in jest (though I did make it of mention that...the wording may make it sound like its a crucial factor. Sorry about that :x)

I asked what I asked because the way you announced the ability change, and how similar the two names are (Miller/filler) made me wonder if your ability was partially randomized or something.  You seemed both confused and forthcoming, and I couldn't even tell by how you wrote if you were surprised that it happened or just confused about a part of it or what.

In truth, I'm quite :O that someone picked me as a target!
Of all the games, I'm finally picked by someone *_*
I feel both honored and in awe, because I got picked. Also other stuffs which are confusing at the moment and all (ie Who hit Tiruin?).

Tiruin, what action did you use this night? Don't say on who or what, perhaps not even concretely what it did, but what you used.

...
What action > Don't say who or what.
...
Err. Doesn't that defeat the first question?
I used an action last night, yeah?
...
...
You ask me what action I did, but I shouldn't say what.
@__@
Wat.

[webadict]

Webadict: Is this game restricted to One Lynch Per Day?

No. But only in cases where two or more players are successfully Hammered. Ending the Day with equal votes less than Hammer is a No Lynch. Or those related to abilities, as always.

[Persus13]

Personally, I'm viewing Cheeetar's actions at the end of D1 as a null tell. I know that I would likely do the same in his place, no matter what alignment I was. We should instead be lynching Flabort.

Cheeetar:

Persus13, it was me or FlabortShakerag and I had a very small window of time in which to decide. I'm incredibly glad he ended up not being town. Thanks!

Correction in bold.

Alright, I think you're still suspicious, but Flabort is more suspicious.

Tiruin:

> I've lost my Miller ability (...yeah.)

That was me testing to make sure you weren't fakeclaiming scum. You passed. It also is completely gone, not stolen.

> I've gained a Filler Ability. Literally called such. Ihave a 50% chance to lose an ability while...I have that ability.
As if its going to do anything anyway. :V

That wasn't me.

However it is unsure, though I've to ask any vets who have knowledge about alignments and somesuch in this case *stares at OP*, that the ally knew who was the SK, other than there was an SK for the rule to take place.

So I'm pretty wary regarding that case and your attitude--though knowing you...I am undecided.
Also why the paradox of claiming a yes or no and leaning on the 'or' in the middle? :I

...And thanks, but it seems someone swapped it (given the wording) or stole it. Less likely the latter.

I believe SK-ally doesn't know who the SK is unless it's one of their autos. I'm not too sure on that. However I'm pretty sure that the SK doesn't know who their ally is.

Flabort:

How would an SK ally even work, anyways?
The SK would have to kill it's ally to win. Shakerag would have to die anyways for him to win.
Wait, does that mean we have an SK? Great.

Allies win when the people they're allied with win.
Dying does not equal losing, unless you're the last member of your faction.
We have 17 players. Why did you think there wasn't an SK?

As for your question, I knew that:
A) I would die for reals if I was voted that day after being daykilled, because my revive would not have time to recharge.
B) Someone having more votes on them then me would make me safe. Yes, this was incredibly self-serving, but I feel like my powers could help town. Less so now that I've actually claimed them, but I think they can still help; turning the night game against Scum into an excruciating game of "Did I or didn't I, and if I did where?". Night WIFOM vs Scum, if you will.
C) I didn't want to be responsible for killing either of them if they wound up town.
D) I didn't want to cause a tie.
E) I essentially presented the two of them with a variation on Prisoner's Dilemma. If one votes the other, they survive the day. If anyone else considered them scummy, though, they didn't. If they managed to each vote each other simultaneously (they didn't), they'd both survive due to it becoming a tie and no-lynch.
F) I didn't trust either of them.
G) Whoever cast the hammer vote would come under suspicion from the whole town.

So you did it to draw attention away from yourself, get two other people lynched that weren't you and avoid responsibility for it. Nice try. Yeah, you need to be lynched.

Imp: I have not received a PM confirming or denying anything yet; I have not recieved information that would imply that I successfully copied the housing power onto myself. The power is not innately one of information, but I should learn about certain powers affecting me, such as if I gained a new ability like was implied by Varee.

If you don't get a PM, it means your action was or seemed successful.

No, I'm just in a different time zone. GMT+2, 10am now.

That's true, of course, which is something I might confirm only to me.

Also, we almost definitely have an SK, given an SK-ally (unless Wuba really is a bastard in regard to Shakerag ), and we have another third party to be sure.

Given at least two killing teams, I'd guess we either have an arsonist or a really strange mafia kill.

Where are you getting this information? How do you know there's another third party after the SK and SK-ally?
How do you know there's two killing teams when there were no kills last night?

It's called common sense. TolyK did the same exact thing in Jack's BYOR too. If there's a 17 player game, then either there is a large scumteam or multiple third parties. Only multiple third parties is more balanced and FUN. Also, Shakerag's role only allows one kill to occur, which means that at least two people have some form of kill. One of which we know is the SK, while the other is likely the Mafia or a Vigilante. Weren't you in Jack's BYOR? Stop trying to cast suspicion on other people.

TolyK:

I happened to see this while reading (yes, I see posts 352 and 353, but I'm on phone and can only quote one at a time).

Pardon Shakerag

I'm afraid not.

Wtf was this? Apparently a mayor who failed?

Webadict specifically said at the end of D1 that actions sent in after the hammer fail. So yes.

NQT:

I want to say that, in Cheetah's position, I'd probably have done the exact same thing. When you're hammer-tied and you don't know the alignment of the person you're tied with, hammering them is probably the right move regardless of your alignment.

Although I agree with you on Cheeetar, you're being really lenient on people this game. Are you prviding any alternatives to Flabort and Cheetar?

[4maskwolf]

4mask What do you mean, someone distrusts you still?

What I mean was that my action last night failed, which I'm assuming means I was roleblocked (which is odd, because that's my power).  Either that, or my target was immune to roleblocks.

I can't really fault Cheeetar for trying to save his own skin, but his defensiveness about it... idk.  Something strikes me as off, and I want to get to the bottom of this.

Cheeetar: How many scum do you think there are?  How many third parties?