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[Persus13]

Persus13: Thank you for the clear and detailed response.
On votes for 4mask: NQT was also voting for Wolf.

You state that the "right response" to Nerjin's post would have been purely apologetic and would have involved dropping the issue, and that 4maskwolf was needlessly and ridiculously defensive/aggressive.  I have a couple questions:
*Does the fact that Nerjin explicitly threatened to vote to lynch 4maskwolf for poor etiquette alone have any impact on the "right response" to Nerjin's complaints?
*Aside from your view of 4maskwolf's response as excessively defensive, what do you think of 4mask's argument that voting him for etiquette reasons is a bad idea and worthy of a vote?

Thanks for providing the other vote. Votes have been flying thick and fast, so it's hard to keep track of who is voting who.

I was mentally comparing Nerjin's response to 4maskwolf to Wuba stepping in on the cryptography issue. When Wuba had made it clear that he did not want cryptography I dropped the issue as it was serving no purpose and could reduce the fun. While Nerjin was overly offensive on 4maskwolf, I equated it to Wuba modkilling someone who did cryptography. Anyway, if I was 4maskwolf, I would have apologized, questioned Nerjin about why he thought voting someone over something useless was a good idea, and then depending on Nerjin's answer, either dropped the issue or voted him, making it about Nerjin instead of about myself. Instead, 4maskwolf made it about himself. I could understand 4maskwolf questioning Nerjin about how scummy voting someone over an inconvenience would be. I could understand 4maskwolf even voting Nerjin over that bit. But instead of taking the opportunity to scumhunt Nerjin or apologize, 4maskwolf instead made it about himself by being hostile to Nerjin and threatening him, telling him to use his vote to help town, when Nerjin hadn't voted him at all yet.

Could Nerjin's hostility impacted 4maskwolf's decision, yes, but it doesn't justify his manner of response.
Is voting 4maskwolf for etiquette reasons bad? It depends, but it's the start of D1, and Nerjin only threatened to vote him, he didn't actually vote him, so I'd consider it to only be a little over the top.

Persus13:  Are you willing to lynch a person for posting in an annoying manner as the only reason?

No. Lynching someone for being annoying, excessively defensive indicating that they could be hiding something, and not scumhunting? Well, it's still early D1, so I'd like to gather more evidence first, although it does seem from his other posts that 4maskwolf is just being uncharacteristically grouchy and unhelpful.

[4maskwolf]

You shouldn't care about me being alive.  Nobody but me knows my alignment, I could be anti-town for all you know.  If you really want to lynch me, feel free.

4maskwolf: What are you even doing?

Me?  I'm telling the truth.  You all don't know what my alignment is, be it town or scum or whatever: true.  As such, there is no particular incentive to keep me alive over anyone else.  This goes for everyone: currently, there is no particular reason to keep any given person alive because only they (and their scum buddies, should they have them) know who they are.

Ow-tato! Stop that. Stop poking your Jester's stick into my trillions of eyes!

Lolz you actually think I'm a jester?

[Imp]

Tiruin:

Imp

Imp:  Welcome back!  What did you learn in your absence that's applicable to Mafia?

I'm no longer fascinated by Mafia.  Still interested, but not all gung ho.

So lots of related similar game experiences but no longer overfocused on the game.

Mmm...fascinated =/= overfocused?
I'm a bit confused by the terms but I associate fascinated = interested//something good. :x
What do you mean by fascinated? Did it become...bad?

I often respond to 'new things' by giving them a lot of attention, probably more than most people would, and that can go on for a long time.  I'm simply out of that stage now.  Means I probably won't be putting 5+ hours a day into thinking, reading, and writing for the game, like I did for my first few games.  Overfascination can fuel that level of reaction

I don't consider how I react to new things to be 'bad'; but its definitely 'different' and 'temporary', and I'm out of that stage for Mafia.

Varee:

so whoever feel like they have time to give opinion: What do you think is lying too much. Is saying your internet broke down to avoid answering question?

I believe that all you do should further your goals, whatever those goals are.  How you asked that question effectively states that the goal is to 'not answer questions'.  That doesn't sound like a Town goal to me, nor an involved player's choices.

After all, what are you going to do, keep your internet broken the rest of the game?  Because when you return, you.... will be expected to answer the questions you feel motivated to avoid.  Or do you think to bury your head under the broken internet until you are slain?  Probably better to replace in that case.

As to what is lying too much; I don't know.  I saw some Town use a lot of lying in the Paranormal I played to totally rock the game (to be fair, there were also freely-allowed PMs that game, which I had missed the rules about; and that also changed gameplay hugely).  It was awesome and shocking to me.  I currently don't have a definition for what 'lying too much' may be, -if- it serves your goals and allows you to achieve those goals.  However lies that fail to achieve your goals are clearly a complete waste of time.

Questions for you, Varee:

What would three questions be that you would feel tempted to claim 'my internet broke down' rather than answer?

What do you think of my answer to your question about lies?

How useful do you believe conversation is, compared to use of abilities?  Do you use the conversation much in your play?

4maskwolf:

Imp: What do you believe is the best survivor strategy?

Flexibility and responsiveness.

Shakerag:

So you're saying that you'd benefit from being a target?  That's interesting to know.  No, I don't think your pre-game banter is useful, although your responses to it now may be. 

Peoples' responses and interactions are useful.  Targeting someone for their pre-game banter is an unusual choice, and that could be useful.

[Shakerag]

Actually, I'm asking you to think of what you know about each player, and come up with an answer based on that. Though I added the roles part for my amusement, yes, the question is less about the roles and more about the players.

...  ...  ...  okay, fine, whatever.

4maskwolf - Looks like a quitter
Cheeetar - Seems like he hasn't played in a while.
flabort - Has an obsession with potatoes.  And is annoying me.
Hapah - Is apparently TolyK now.  Which is a name I recognize and not much else.
Imp - Is wordy.
IronyOwl - A good veteran player.
Jack A T - A veteran player of some quality.
Jiokuy - I have no idea who this is.
Nerjin - Really likes revolvers.
notquitethere - Analytical, but loses a lot.
Persus13 - *shrug*
Scripten - I have no idea who this is.
Shakerag - A cantankerous asshole.
Silthuri - I have no idea who this is.
Tiruin - Makes wordy and difficult to read posts.
Toaster - A good veteran player.
Varee - I have no idea who this is. 


I will make a note that I am possibly the worst person you could have asked a "what do you know about each player" question to.

[flabort]

Ow-tato! Stop that. Stop poking your Jester's stick into my trillions of eyes!

Lolz you actually think I'm a jester?

It seems like you're trying to get yourself lynched. Which is a huge jester tell, because that's what jesters DO.
And I have trouble believing you genuinely don't care about the game. If you genuinely didn't care, you'd just stop posting; leaving the games absent, vanishing from them. You wouldn't be responding to my accusation.

I will make a note that I am possibly the worst person you could have asked a "what do you know about each player" question to.

What? You want me to ask someone who's GOOD at answering the question? It's not a "hard question" if it's asked to someone who can answer it easily. Asking the people who have trouble answering yields more data per weight than asking someone who has a pre-fabricated answer.
I'm quite satisfied with your answer.

[Tiruin]

I will make a note that I am possibly the worst person you could have asked a "what do you know about each player" question to.

What? You want me to ask someone who's GOOD at answering the question? It's not a "hard question" if it's asked to someone who can answer it easily. Asking the people who have trouble answering yields more data per weight than asking someone who has a pre-fabricated answer.
I'm quite satisfied with your answer.

So why aren't you asking me anything @__@

PFP

[flabort]

So why aren't you asking me anything @__@

PFP

But I did, and you answered.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tiruin Let's say you're not a miller, but a jester. Would you still have claimed miller? What would you be doing different if you were a miller or a jester?

Heck no. Even if my goal is to die, I won't lie about something that has no connection to me at all or would prove any benefit to me in anyway.
I'd be aiming to live to Day 2 then probably scum it up, however my goal would be to proving a tangle to the weave of interactions so that I would in the very least aid scumhunting. Because in all cases that I'm not Mafia, I'm pro-Town. Yeah, even as a SK :V
If I was a miller I'd...claim right away that I'm a miller more on because of the many implications carried with it. Most of which I believe is better inferred than said, given the base suspicion it entails. The powers of presumption are also strong in miller claims, so if I was a miller I'd at least play best to who I am in principle as a player--doing it honestly or doing an outright lie. The threat is little and apparent if I can't be consistent.
If I was a jester (given that jesters win upon lynch)...I'd very well scumhunt beforehand, then suitably--if properly done--attract scum, and then get scum to try to catch me via subtle manipulation [generalizing here], then I'd concede to my lynch via flailing, subtly!

But if you insist that I haven't asked you enough,
How does a well-played day 1 RVS affect the game? How does a poorly played RVS affect the game?

[Cheeetar]

I'm really not sure whether 4mask is genuinely sick of Mafia at this point, or just a jester. I'm having trouble seeing his behaviour as helpful to the town though.
TolyK: Did you replace Jiokuy? Have I been voting for somebody who is actually no longer playing the game?

Cheetar:
If you were a town miller, what would you do?

I now realise the best thing to do would be to claim immediately.

Cheeetar: Why do you believe that preemptive measures are a scumtell?

Scum have more important lives than townies, in terms of how much their death would affect the game. They should be more self interested than townies.

Is your miller power one of those dependent on the number of players?  What did Webadict say about you being a miller?  Please tell us everything you're comfortable telling us about your milleriness.

This, and other posts asking for information about Tiruin's role beyond that of being a miller- still scummy, even if you ask timidly.

Cheeetar: I'll take it you don't much like my efforts to gain clarifications of an unclear miller claim, even with them done in a way that allows Tiruin to withhold sensitive information without conflict?

Yes, I don't. Regardless of how comfortable sharing they are, you should never ask for somebody to volunteer information about their role at such an early time. It's just role fishing, that's all it is.

4maskwolf: Out of all of Cheeetar's lynch push, this is what you latch on to?  The bit where he shows cluelessness about how the game works?  Please explain how this specific part of Cheeetar's argument indicates scumhood.

It's called a random vote.  I was prying for more specifics on why Cheeetar believed that claiming miller after an investigation was a null tell but claiming before was a scumtell.  I believe the exact opposite: claiming miller day one is a good idea in games.  I see it as a null tell: I'll still lynch them if they act suspicious, but I won't put their lynch before anyone else's.

4maskwolf: Alright.  I tend to expect votes with reasons to be non-random, but it is early enough in the day that I can accept the vote as RVS-type stuff.  Unvote.

4maskwolf, quoting a small wall of text for no reason is bad forum etiquette, especially as you can't go back and edit it. This game already has and will have plenty of extremely long posts. Adding to it does not help. It is unhelpful to the game in general. Responding to someone's comment about it being unhelpful by being even more unhelpful and threatening doesn't help either.

Persus13: Alright, I understand that you haven't read a significant part of the thread, and thus are unaware of the votes already on 4maskwolf and of his use of an iPod to play.  However, this is still an astoundingly lazy vote.  You're largely repeating Nerjin's complaint about 4mask not cutting his quotes enough, and your addition (that his response to Nerjin's threats was unhelpful) does little to make voting for 4mask a good idea.

Please explain, in detail, how 4maskwolf's poor etiquette in posting a longer post than necessary and how 4mask's response to Nerjin threatening to vote him for poor etiquette indicate scumhood.

This, Jack A T, is strange. In one unvote you forgive a RVS-type vote, and then immediately you're voting for Persus13 for what seems to be a RVS-type vote.

Here's my explanation. Currently 4maskwolf is the scummiest player for his response to Nerjin. The only other player I find scummy currently, is Cheeetar, because up until he voted Jiokuy, I was convinced he was a Lyncher due to his focus on lynching Tiruin and pushing for that lynch instead of doing any scumhunting. Now he's started scumhunting, so my suspicions of him are somewhat lessened.

Persus, my vote on Jiokuy isn't exactly scumhunting- I just wanted him to start posting. This is a pretty lazy way to decide who you suspect or don't. I think my suspicion of Tiruin has been much more constructive and helpful to the town than my poking of Jiokuy.

[Persus13]

Cheeetar:
TolyK replaced in for Hapah, not Jiokuy. Also, Jiokuy stated in CYOR that he was having internet issues and that they wouldn't get resolved until today (I think).

[Cheeetar]

Alright, thanks.

[Jack A T]

Jack A T:

Shakerag: Has your role screwed everyone over yet?  If not, when will it?

You, too, wound me, Jack.  While I would find it hilarious if my role could screw everyone over, I doubt webadict would allow things to be that unbalanced.  As for the rest, you can take your role-fishing attempts elsewhere.

Shakerag: Alright.  Not sure what "the rest" is in this case, as you answered both of my questions fully before the last comment.

Persus13:  Are you willing to lynch a person for posting in an annoying manner as the only reason?

Are you willing to read the bit where Persus13 gives more reasons for his vote, including significant elements beyond 4mask posting in an annoying manner?

Persus13: In response to this post, I hereby unvote.  I get the impression of honesty in your explanations of your vote.  I'm not sure comparing an intervention by Nerjin (a participant in the game with possible ulterior motives) to an intervention by Webadict (the moderator, who is hopefully not hostile) is the best idea, though.

Imp: I find your response to Varee's question interesting, largely for the pragmatism and the lack of comments about etiquette.  Do you believe there to be any situations in which you would feel comfortable lying about your real life circumstances for an advantage?

Yes, I don't. Regardless of how comfortable sharing they are, you should never ask for somebody to volunteer information about their role at such an early time. It's just role fishing, that's all it is.

Cheeetar: "Never" is quite a strong word in Mafia.  Do avoid allowing believed absolutes to block notice of situational issues.

This [the unvoting of 4maskwolf and voting of Persus13], Jack A T, is strange. In one unvote you forgive a RVS-type vote, and then immediately you're voting for Persus13 for what seems to be a RVS-type vote.

I do not agree with your analysis.  We appear to have very different views of what an RVS-type vote is.  I view votes with actual reasons to be, unless otherwise indicated, non-RVS votes: they're not random.  4maskwolf's vote had a reason (making it seem to not be an RVS vote), but he indicated it was an RVSish vote and I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt.  Persus13's vote has a reason (making it seem to not be an RVS vote), and he is seriously making a case.  He is also not saying it was an RVS vote.

Please explain how Persus13's vote appears to be an RVS vote.
I shall do a reevaluation of the game and post reads later.

[webadict]

This should be right, right? If you notice anything wrong, let me know.

Also, bold and red, please!

Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf - notquitethere, Persus13, Nerjin,
Cheeetar - flabort,
flabort -
Imp -
IronyOwl -
Jack A T -
Jiokuy - Cheeetar,
Nerjin -
notquitethere -
Persus13 - Shakerag,
Scripten -
Shakerag -
Silthuri - IronyOwl,
Tiruin - Scripten,
Toaster -
TolyK -
Varee -

Not Voting - Imp, Jiokuy, Silthuri, Toaster, TolyK, Varee, Tiruin, 4maskwolf, Jack A T,

9 To Hammer. Day ends Tuesday 7 PMish CST.

[Varee]

Varee: Do you think that being the newest player here (I think) will impede your play in any way?  If so, how?

I don't feel like being new here is the biggest problem for me currently. It is more of the go to bed and woke up to 4-5 new pages of stuff in the morning. Just the sheer amount of people in this game is giving me head ache. I have a feeling i wont be able to read every single post.


IMP

What would three questions be that you would feel tempted to claim 'my internet broke down' rather than answer?


What do you think of my answer to your question about lies?


How useful do you believe conversation is, compared to use of abilities?  Do you use the conversation much in your play?

1 well i dont really want to go as far as lying about thing IRL as i feel like that is going a bit too far. That also seem to be what majority of people here think too.
2 Your answer is different from other people opinion. It is a question for opinion after all so it is personal i guess? Also it give me the feeling that you are like one of those guy that are willing to do anything to win.
3I personally not a conversation heavy guy. It might be the style i play before which is pretty much speed mafia. Also my limited interaction of posting like one or twice a day also impose a limit on my ability to use conversation effectively.


Also this role web adict give out will be kind of fun:D

[Silthuri]

4mask:

Oh no, I can be far more creepy if I'm actually trying to be creepy.

That's terrifying.

*4maskwolf does a pitiful puppy face*

It kinda reminded me of a little horror game called Ib. With paintings, little girls, dolls... In short, it was creepy and if that's not you being creepy...

Silthuri: What do you feel is the most annoying type of third party, should it exist?

Hmm... I'd just say the average SK that kills random people and creates chaos because it's not just scum killing.

Everyone: Have I ever "given up" in a mafia game you have seen me play, barring the over dramatized giving up post I made in Jack's BYOR when I was fakeclaiming martyr and my first two games (my first BM and Wuba's last game)?

Not that I've seen.

Silthuri: You've been around about as long as I have, right?  What is your favorite game of mafia you have played in so far?

I think our first game was Tiruin's Court of Colors BM, yes? We kinda got here at about the same time.
It's hard to pick a favorite... perhaps MMM, which I lost due to replacing in for someone who hadn't posted the entire game, but it was fun because I successfully pulled off a win in my tent with one single well-placed scum kill and turning the remaining two on each other.
Flabort:

Silthuri if you had the ability to intercept any actions targeting someone, and have them affect you, based off initial impressions who would you intercept for?

I'd probably just not intercept for anyone. I'm unsure about everyone at this point.
NQT:

Silthuri

Nope. I like playing as all alignments. I've only been third party once where I replaced in to die, and even that was kinda fun.

Are you implying that you're a third-party?

Nope. I was saying that while I have the least experience with third parties, I still like playing as one. And I've been third party twice. Forgot GBU...
IronyOwl:

Silthuri, when would you bus an ally as scum? Would that answer change as the game progressed?

I'd bus them if they were a lost cause in order to make myself look more town but only as a last resort. This answer probably wouldn't change as the game goes on.

Silthuri I would better know as... MOWE? I know I should remember more of her than I do, so into the unknown bin she goes.

I'm naturally inconspicuous. I'm always in the unknown bin...
Cheeetar:

Everybody, do you think a claimed miller lynch would be the best choice on Day 1, in the absence of any strong scumtells, or would a more random vote work better?

If we have no other direction to go in, it would be an alright choice in case they're throwing out miller as an excuse to come up scum to inspects. As 4mask said though, that's kinda cruel to the miller if they are indeed just a miller. Besides. This is Tiruin's first miller experience apparently. I'm willing to believe she's actually a miller. For now.
Nerjin: So you're the President from Fallout 3? Are you roleplaying it excessively so I can't catch you in a lie?
Just skimmed through the pages of posts for the questions addressed to me. I'll go back through everything again on Sunday. Apologies if I missed anything.

[Tiruin]

Nerjin: So you're the President from Fallout 3? Are you roleplaying it excessively so I can't catch you in a lie?

O__o

Where'd you get Fallout 3 all of a sudden? xD
To be honest, in the answer of my question he does pretty much cut roleplaying straight, in that I get that he designs to include it with his mafia-related-posts.

...He sounded more like John F. Kennedy to me...