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[Imp]

Hey all.  Very sorry for my recent prolonged absence, real life issues, now mostly resolved, that I don't care to discuss made me entirely too busy to give time.  Delighted the day was extended.  I've skimmed/read what has happened since my last post and I'll reread more thoroughly and dive back in with a proper post a bit later tonight.  I owe a few answers, I want to post updated reads (and was asked for them anyway) and I think I have a few more questions than this, but I'll throw this one out to start with.

I have seen "Hammer has hit, stop talking" so, so many times.

flabort, what's your previous Mafia playing experience?  I had been assuming you were a pretty new player, but you're just pretty new to this forum's Mafia games, is that correct?  Or is even that wrong, and my search of the Mafia forum for your games what is failing me?
Also, extend.  I believe we still have a second unused extension.

[Jack A T]

Jack A T OK, if anyone were to pursue you for any reason, what do you think they would be accusing you over? I'm sorry that wasn't clear.

flabort: I do not carefully watch my activities for possible avenues of attack, and will not start now.  However, I could see players (particularly NQT) going for me for not posting as often as I should.

I'm using the answer to explain the reason; the reason did not come after the answer. I knew he usually does that, but his answer made it easier to explain.

Lovely.  You're not engaging with my point at all.  My point, of course, being that there was a lack of prior evidence that could even begin to support your assertion of 4mask and I having consistent reads of each other and a "mutual relationship of distancing," there was evidence that falsified your assertions of specific consistent reads, and thus that your asserted reasons for the 4mask and I group had clearly been made after the fact.  The only evidence supporting the consistent reads claim that was your alleged reason for the group was the evidence you gathered in group questioning.

Essentially, your reason is bullshit not because you're using the answers to explain it, but because the evidence available when you allegedly made the groups could not have led you to have that reason.

I'll find some "evidence for [my] assertions" before the lynch, if I'm not hammered. OK?

Alright.  You had best do so quickly.  There is not much time left.

My key points are that he is hiding massive amounts of hidden communications in his roleplay, is evasive as heck, and is getting upset over things that shouldn't upset him. To summarize in as brief as I can.

Alright, thank you.  I don't understand the part about "hidden communications," though.  Why would scum do this?  Why not use scumchat, which is much easier and safer to do than veiling communications in flavour?  What is even the point of veiled statements like the ones you accuse him of making, like the below one?

"As your president I have been authorized..." means "My scum buddies are allowing me to...".

I'd like to see YOU do a post-by-post analysis that doesn't have some useless information.

As a side note, flabort, this is why everybody hates post-by-post analyses.  They almost always have a few points in them, but almost always buried in walls of crap.  Nobody wants to read walls of crap.  It would be a good idea, in the future, to try to remove the useless information and just give your important points and the evidence for them.

[Cheeetar]

OK, going to where I manipulated Nerjin, and why he is scum.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

<completely massive wall of text that I'm not going to quote>

I can't really address all of this, nor should I, but there were some things that stuck out to me and I did say I'd respond to it earlier:
There's a lot of stuff here in which you 'pretend not to notice' things until later- is this a convenient way of saying you didn't see it as suspicious then, but realise now that it could be seen as so?
You mention a lot that you were trying to attract attention and suspicion- how do you see this as positive to the town?
You also mention that part of your manipulation of Nerjin is getting him to daykill you. How did you know he had a daykill before he used it? How do you know he's the one who daykilled you?


Unrelated: you still see me as very scummy. Would you like to reinforce your case on me? I've been posting a fair bit- you should be able to figure out some of the ways I've given myself away with your 140 IQ. Perhaps just restate the points you have on me apart from the fact that I've been voting for you?

[Imp]

I'm tired and I don't have time to finish my deep read through and right ups.  I am following the thread as best I can, I'm ready for either more time if there's an extend or for the day to end in about 13 hours if that's what happens.  I'll post again before that day end if I get the chance.

updated reads, on flabort and Varee:

Spoiler: flabort (click to show/hide)

I had thought that flabort was a pretty new player and was judging his play under that standard.  He felt pretty Town from that perspective; minimal hostility, friendly, open, curious, boastful, having fun.  I didn't and really still don't feel hostile intent from his day game.  His use of ability seemed somewhat advanced for a newbie, but also confused; I wasn't sure what to think about it.  His apparent goals in using the vote ability especially, and what he said about his revive were the main things that contradicted this newbie Townie feel for me.  His goals in how he used his vote power did not and do not seem Town, and do not match the values and priorities he had shown in his day game.  His claims being somewhat panicked then, his discription here:

Yes, I was panicking too. Somewhat. You don't gather ~5 votes, get daykilled, and then get the only votes so far back on you and not panic about that; someone wants you dead, and that someone is very determined. I want to be alive long enough to learn who.

That doesn't sound or feel like a new player playing Town.  Furthermore he's made a claim of being very, very familiar with hammers.  So he also knows he doesn't 'need to be alive' to learn anything; we learn everything when the game is over no matter when we die.  This attitude doesn't match the rest of his earlier attitude.  His more recent talk of calculation, manipulation, and claims of subtle control don't match it either.  I don't think flabort's a newbie any more, and I also don't think he's Town anymore.  I especially dislike how he keeps changing what he has said about his revive ability's limits, from his original claim about it:

I'm afraid there's no point to voting me.

to his current claim that yes, he could be killed by a lynch now, if we lynch him now, but also saying

I don't see the rest of the game going well if you continue to lynch me.

Moderate lean Scum.

Spoiler: varee (click to show/hide)

I really distrust Varee.  D1 when he started to get votes and more pressure, he switched from goofing off to discussing who he would build a house/give a power to.  He hasn't chosen to speak plainly at any point, he doesn't appear at all concerned as to the alignment or intentions of anyone he might target to give this 'gift' to.  He seems way to trusting of the opinions of other players.  He gives me the 'leave me alone, pay attention to other people' feel that I consider to be a scumtell.  Part of his explanation for why his power apparently gave nothing to Toaster:

1.1 Flabort did not target me or toaster as if he target one of us either he would also get the power or toaster would get the power

But Varee never said he needed Flabort's 'help' to make this work.  That's a new and strange angle to this whole 'toilet' thing.  He claims his vote is safest where it is now (unused?), he claims that pressing a case is not the best way for him to gain info now, he still has no suspicions, but uses phrases like:

Well if both me and flabort is to be trusted

I worry about that 'santa claim' of his.  Nice cover for a converter even.  Moderate lean Scum.

Varee:
You claim you targeted Toaster N1 with your claimed santa ability.  The first thing you said about D2 was

so someone get the house. I will be real happy if whoever got it said so.

Given that you targeted Toaster, why didn't you ask Toaster what the house he got was?  Why did you even suspect at that point that Toaster didn't get it?

Toaster never said if he got it or not.  Why have you not at all, at any point, directly asked Toaster about it - even though you used the words

Toaster is lying and he got a new power but he is lying

as a possible explanation of what happened?  Do you often call people liars when they don't answer a question they were not even directly asked?

Toaster:
You didn't directly respond to Varee's question if someone got a house.  He also didn't specifically question you about it.  Why didn't you talk to him about this odd indirection, and the other odd things he said about it, like:

there a few thing that could have happen.
1 Toaster is lying and he got a new power but he is lying( Well i dont think he is lying but it is possible)

     1.1 Flabort did not target me or toaster as if he target one of us either he would also get the power or toaster would get the power
     1.2 Flabort lied about his power( well this is the most likely thing that happen)
2Toaster got the power but he dont want to tell us (I dont think this happen)
3 I totally misunderstand my power..... ( I dont think it is this one too, It might not be a house but i am positive i built something.)

Do you usually ignore when people say you may be lying, when you haven't even answered the question in any way - and haven't even directly been asked?

[Imp]

EBWOP:

flabort:
Meant to ask you, what did you mean when you posted this?

I don't see the rest of the game going well if you continue to lynch me.

[Toaster]

Jack:

That said, I'm having less issues with your [Scripten's] play now, and am willing to back off for now.

Toaster: Please explain.

Yeah, I could have elaborated better here.

My original attack was that he was just coasting along, putting out a token vote, and not really looking elsewhere.  Since then, he has expanded his horizons and looked elsewhere, so that's blunted the issue I had with him.

If he had voted with an explanation like this post instead of doing it later, I never would have voted him in the first place.

Varee (not hunting), TolyK (not giving any explanations for his suspicions), and Flabort (his odd claims and actions) are all much scummier than him now anyway.


Scripten:

Wait a second, I'd like to understand this a bit better. What, exactly, has changed in my play since your post besides me putting pressure on you? And why are all of your votes on people who aren't going to flip?

See above.  As for where I place my vote, I put it where I damn well please.  I feel zero obligation to vote for someone with a lot of votes already on them.  A Flabort lynch seems pretty likely, so right now I can 1) use my vote on my top suspect [which I'd do anyway] 2) have a chance to tease out some side leads.  If you're asking whether I'd vote for Cheeetar or Flabort, it'd be Flabort in a skinny minute.



Flabort:  The top half of this post is unreadable.


Imp:

Toaster never said if he got it or not.

False:

Varee:

so someone get the house. I will be real happy if whoever got it said so. Also on second thought it might not be a house. more like toilet or something.

Wasn't me.  Did you target someone or just let it be random?

You didn't directly respond to Varee's question if someone got a house.  He also didn't specifically question you about it.  Why didn't you talk to him about this odd indirection, and the other odd things he said about it, like:

Also false; I did here:

Varee:

The power is an auto trigger that will give a random player, including me, a new power according to their role every night. I have the ability to target someone, that is not myself, with it as a free action every night. The person that recieve the power then should be inform of it.

Just to clear this up: even if you target it, it's still an auto power?  Or do you target a night action and it just fires off even if you don't target?  Or some third thing?

He never answered me.  I care less now because he's probably just lying scum, because if everyone was telling the truth, Flabort would have gotten something too.  He never said he did.

[Toaster]

Mysteriousbluepuppet, Silthuri, Varee, 4maskwolf, Tiruin:  Why are you not voting?  Are you content with the Flabort lynch?  If you're not, you should vote otherwise, because at this point a vote for no one is a vote for Flabort.

[Varee]

Ok I understand now that certain people take this game seriously so I will stop goofing around. My attempt of RIA is doing exactly what the wiki warn me will happen.


I dont believe it a LYLO situation but I wont denied that a lynch is useful to the town.


@Persus

-snip-

I understand that my distraction may seem counter productive but I Hope I can justify it in this post.
more on lynch and power. From my brief look at other Web's game, the power seem to be well spread out in the town. There usually a few kill with in their rank, enough to take the scum with out needing a single lynch. There seem to be quite alot of day power too. I still suspect day one extend kill to be some reuseable power.

@Jack AT

Varee: Explain this statement.  Also, give reads of everyone.  What the fuck are you doing and why are you doing so little to scumhunt?

The first part is a bit too much to ask of me right now but I will try put out a few and I will answer the second part.

@scripten
I dont believe mass claim should be weigh most on the person power list, more on the result of the power. It would atleast be certain contradiction and certain player will have to lie and certain will be telling half truth so even the power list dont tell much, it still more informing than a flip in my opinion.
I cant control my "urge to build" so to say so If scum have redirect then there almost nothing I can do to stop them from getting power unless someone make it unredirectable.


@toaster
I gave my PoV on why you did not recieve a power last night. I still believe that I was redirected but then it would have been target at me as flabort should be redirected to the same target unless it a randomise. I see no reason for you to vote me, All you said was you feel better about scripten and then vote me on case NQT is building so little explaintion?
I explain my power many times. It an unstoppable auto that fire of randomly unless I specifically target it at someone. You seem to be oblivious to that fact.


@cheetar
I appreciate your concern on my action, I will refrain on causing you anymore concern if possible. No promise though
I feel your reaction to flabort is totally justified. In situation of it either you or me there rarely any reason for you to kill yourself, unless you have to get lynch as a goal. Taking matter into your own hand is just  risk management.


Me and my actions.
From the first day I was not very certain on how I was going to approach this amount of player. I tried to answer question directed at me and not get involve in big discussions seem to be a good idea but NQT keep at me and calling me out. I start my talk about power as I feel it a way to get people involve in something a bit closer to me. The Flabort oneshot cut it short though. I couldnt really make a decision on how I should use my power.
Day 2 approach is to try get someone to clarify the effect of my power. Imp I was not targeting toaster directly to give the feeling that I random target the power but people dont seem to buy it. People are splitting up on Flabort and Cheetar, which is a better lynch target. I decide to stay away from it. I dont need to get information to win the game, true, but playing with more information definitely will give you an upper hand. Why would people demand a flip if not for information?
Scripten ask me about voting and scare tactic so I FoS slithuri, putting on some pressure trying to get a reply but It seem that she is inactive. Intentionally causing distraction to draw attention to me did not go as I hope it would. Most of the respond seem a general PoV of player toward playing "Lazily". I dont think It is relate to player role in this game as much as i hope, I may be wrong though. Only respond from my action seem to be from scripten tirutin NQT Jack and cheetar. The rest either ignore me or is pursuing bigger prey.
Toaster strike me weird though. He seem to easily change his mind about his vote. I Still believe him to have good intent but that switch doesnt seem right.


So any question? I like to answer question more than asking so ask away i guess?


PPE: I type this in other word processor so format might be kind of wonky. And forgive me for all the grammar and spelling mistake am sure I am making

[Silthuri]

Flabort, you seem to be the king of OMGUS. You are blowing so many things out of proportion. And also, you do keep changing your story on what your revive is like. First, if we "continue to lynch you" it would be bad. This makes me assume you're speaking of having the equivalence of a No Lynch every day. But then, you say that you'll die if we lynch you today. You're changing your story too much. And for someone who wouldn't die when lynched, you sure freaked out with your one-shot, didn't you?

Spoiler: A Few things that Bother Me (click to show/hide)

Flabort:

Everyone How would you use a day-kill as town? How would you use a day-kill as scum? Do you have the day-kill? Is it a one-shot or an auto that triggers on extend?

I would kill those who I find incredibly suspicious, although this would die out when mistakes come at great cost . At this point, I'd use my kill sparingly. As scum, I would go with my usual scum tactic of either killing those whose deaths wouldn't cast suspicion on me in any way or killing those I deem the greatest threat. I don't have a day-kill. Would be interesting though.

I find it interesting how most players are assuming it's one-shot, but you assume you could use it over and over.
I don't have anything else to say about that yet at this time, though.

I don't automatically assume a day kill is a one-shot. Why do I know that if you somehow weasel out of getting lynched today, you'll start accusing me of trying to day-kill you? You never explicitly said you were talking about a one-shot! What, exactly, is so suspicious about this that you feel the need to say that you "find it interesting" but "don't have anything to else to say about that yet at this time?"

As for your argument on Nerjin... it's mostly nitpicky bullshit.

I continue to breadcrumb and roleplay in a poor fashion, such as here, trying to get the attention of someone else who is roleplaying heavily.

So... you tried to get Nerjin's attention by talking about potatoes? You're allowed to roleplay, but anything anyone else does whilst roleplaying is suspicious? Also, you just comment that you're trying to be a little more lighthearted in this game. Nothing screams "LOOK AT ME!" in this post. You made a potato reference.

I post and appear to be trying to direct 4mask and Nerjin at eachother; I'm actually trying to get them to look at me instead.

You mean this:

So aside from being incredibly rude towards other players and semi-active lurking [he has made several posts recently that contain little to nothing of value inside of them.], His voting of Flabort for no real reason, he also doesn’t care about remaining alive to help town. Perhaps it is foolish to expect someone on their way out to commit. But if you don’t care about being alive, why should we 4mask?

*shrugs*
You shouldn't care about me being alive.  Nobody but me knows my alignment, I could be anti-town for all you know.  If you really want to lynch me, feel free.

Ow-tato! Stop that. Stop poking your Jester's stick into my trillions of eyes!

You're accusing 4mask of being a Jester and joking about potatoes again. You don't seem to be trying to direct anyone at anyone. Nor does it draw attention to yourself. Why would you want them to focus on you?

Also, if you're so sure Nerjin is the scum, why are you not voting him?

Will try for more in a few hours. Class starts soon.

[4maskwolf]

Mysteriousbluepuppet, Silthuri, Varee, 4maskwolf, Tiruin:  Why are you not voting?  Are you content with the Flabort lynch?  If you're not, you should vote otherwise, because at this point a vote for no one is a vote for Flabort.

I'm fine with a Flabort lynch.  I had honestly forgotten that I was still playing a game of mafia, so sorry for not posting.

The reasons why I'm okay with a Flabort lynch?  For one, I don't have any other cases right now.  I'll see if I can look over what has happened in my absence later today.  For the second, his claims have become more and more wild as the day goes on.

[notquitethere]

Flabort is going to get lynched today regardless, and it's more convenient for me if the day start/end is at a time when I'm actually awake. So it's hammer time!

[Persus13]

You did not see a post here, move along.

[notquitethere]

You're wrong Persus, I definitely just hammered:


Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
Cheeetar - IronyOwl, TolyK, flabort,
flabort - Cheeetar, Nerjin, Persus13, Scripten, Jack A T,  Imp, 4maskwolf, Silthuri, NQT
Imp -
IronyOwl -
Jack A T -
Mysteriousbluepuppet -
Nerjin -
notquitethere -
Persus13 -
Scripten -
Silthuri -
Tiruin -
Toaster -
TolyK -
Varee - Toaster,

9 to Hammer

So everyone stop talking.

[TolyK]

What post? I don't see any post...

[TolyK]

Shit, god damn internet (2g) uploading post for a long time.
I'm sorry. Nobody talk.