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Vanilla DF 40.x

Still playing Masterwork for DF 34.x

Both equally.

Both, mostly the new vanilla.

Both, mostly Masterwork.

[Guthbug]

I wouldn't say "bigger", but I would generally say "more fun".

All of the complexity in the world doesn't intrigue me if it happens mostly automatically and I can't control it.

Every fort in vanilla is essentially the same. You could (and I have) macro it so that they always dig the same way, lay down workshops in the same way, set up the squads the same way, and then it's just sitting back and making sure food and booze happens and that strange mood requirements are met.

To be fair, I have not played the new vanilla that much. It was buggy as all get out in the first release, and I just discovered warlocks a couple of weeks ago and haven't worn out the shine on them yet. We can see what my opinion of vanilla is here in a few months.

[Meph]

Putnam, most people dont care about the living world. They want to play a game. They also dont care about proposed developement arcs for the next 10 years, because they want to play a game, now. They dont care enough to make a forum account, go through legends mode, or making succession forts.

you came in with the expectation that you'd get a living world and that would be huge, but clearly some people play it for... other reasons? I'm not sure. They think it's a strategy game?

You have to replace the "you" with "I" in that sentence. I, Putnam, came with the expectation of a living world and thats huge... but yes, other people didnt. I for example came to DF because its a challenging game I can play on a slow netbook. Its installed right next to Starcraft Broodwar and Planescape Torment. ^^ I dont know for sure why who would play DF, but I know that Fort mode is played a lot more than Adv Mode, and that most people dont have the time to get very indepth with DF.

Personal opinion I have: DF is amazing, but its more an art project than a game. You pass it in a gallery, say "Yeah, thats pretty neat", and walk to the next piece, because its simply not practical. You dont buy an art piece, give it to your kid and say: Play with it. No, instead you need a 5$ toy for that. So thats what I am doing. Altering the DF simulation-living-world art, into a mundane, but fun gaming experience. At least I like to see it that way. I always said from the beginning on, DF is a RTS for me, a strategy game. And thats what I am modding.

[Guthbug]

EDIT: The point being that, when you decided to follow Dwarf Fortress, you came in with the expectation that you'd get a living world and that would be huge, but clearly some people play it for... other reasons? I'm not sure. They think it's a strategy game?

I play a simulation, not a living world generator. I play it like an open-ended strategy game. I enjoy setting up designs and forts and doing all sorts of complex, tinkering things in it. That's pretty much my enjoyment out of it. I can't speak for other people.

When I'm playing in fortress mode, I never stop and think, "I wonder what's happening back out there in that town." Now if they build in some sort of hooks to it from within fortress mode then I might start to care. "Ah, look! The human town of PillagedOften has been burned and ransacked by goblins again. What those guys need is some good dwarven weapons sent to them!"

ETA: And I play DF for similar reasons as Meph. I am on an ancient laptop that needed Ubuntu to even function. I tried my hand at modding, but with only limited free time it was never going to be completed. So I enjoy what others have created.

[Putnam]

you came in with the expectation that you'd get a living world and that would be huge, but clearly some people play it for... other reasons? I'm not sure. They think it's a strategy game?

You have to replace the "you" with "I" in that sentence. I, Putnam, came with the expectation of a living world and thats huge... but yes, other people didnt. I for example came to DF because its a challenging game I can play on a slow netbook. Its installed right next to Starcraft Broodwar and Planescape Torment. ^^ I dont know for sure why who would play DF, but I know that Fort mode is played a lot more than Adv Mode, and that most people dont have the time to get very indepth with DF.

I said follow, not play. I'm saying that Masterwork somehow being more than the current version is not knowing the depth of changes to the current version (not a single mention of the complete combat and movement overhauls, I see) or outright malice (I.E trolling).

[Delta_02_Cat]

From a perspective of somebody not involved, this discussion seems a little bit heated up.

Why does one expectation exclude the other?
I see DF as a RTS within a (one day) fully simulated world.

I see that the changes made in the current version are HUGE but I also feel a little disappointed because there aren't that many changes to fortress mode that seem worth the wait of 2 long years.
But I know that this update is the groundwork for much bigger things still to come and I cant wait for the next "big update", the inclusion of taverns, my own armies and all the cool stuff.

Someday, I hope, DF will be a the most complex world simulation which will ever be made (yes I know that this is greatly exaggerated) and within this complex world there will by my character which starts as a mere peasant to become king of a great kingdom which started as a hut in the woods, grew to a small village and became a flourishing city!

The problem now is, we have fortress mode, adv. mode and legends mode. Not one great game but 3 separate games which are loved by some and ignored by others, if one mode gets some changes and the others don't there will be people who feel a bit "left out".
But as Putnam said, in the great picture, someday we all will play the same game with endless possibilities so that everyone will be happy 

And in the meantime, we should work together to get the most out of what we have. For everyone

[Meph]

So... your point is this? 



Delta_02_Cat: Putnam and me have nothing against each other, no heat. Its just a discussion.

[Delta_02_Cat]

On the previous page it seemed a bit hostile, not specially between you and Putnam but more generally.

And what I wanted to say is that everyone has there own expectations to what DF is at the moment, because of the "early" stage of DF development and well that we all should work together
Maybe I interpreted the last posts as a little bit to "hostile"

[Putnam]

I'm saying that if you don't appreciate the current update of DF you won't appreciate the future development of DF, because it's mostly gonna keep going in that direction.

For some reason, the word "expectations" made me actualize that feeling of what I just said into words.

Delta_02_Cat: Putnam and me have nothing against each other, no heat. Its just a discussion.

this is true, just in case you needed to hear from both sides

[Meph]

I'm saying that if you don't appreciate the current update of DF you won't appreciate the future development of DF, because it's mostly gonna keep going in that direction.

Which in itself is not a bad thing. Everyone can have their own opinion.

To come back to the "masterwork is all over reddit" thing: In the end, thats out of anyones control. Even I cant deter people that jump on the Masterwork bandwagon on reddit. It gets so much exposure, because it already has a lot of it. You would need a couple of dedicated players that do mod reviews, succession forts, post screenshots and lets-plays of other mods, regularily, on reddit.

[Guthbug]

I don't "unappreciate" it. I simply don't find it enough of a lure to pull me away from Masterwork at this point in time.

When Masterwork finally ports over then I'm sure I'll appreciate the heck out of it.

[palu]

I sure appreciate the living world. I'm with Putnam on this one. Not to say I don't love Masterwork, but the game aims to be a fantasy world simulator, and this update is a HUGE step toward that. Meph has accomplished great things with modding, but he can't activate the world, or overhaul the combat system.

[Shizmoo]

I sure appreciate the living world. I'm with Putnam on this one. Not to say I don't love Masterwork, but the game aims to be a fantasy world simulator, and this update is a HUGE step toward that. Meph has accomplished great things with modding, but he can't activate the world, or overhaul the combat system.

Nobody can except Toady so I dont see how thats a minus towards meph.

[Putnam]

It's not, it's a plus towards Toady.

[Firehawk45]

Iam actually more excited about movement, combat and the new trees than about the living world. Why? Because those are changes i may actually feel the impact of, while the living world doesnt, aside from attackers now drawing troops from a limited pool of population. I will get more excited for caravan and army arc no doubt, since those will allow me to have more involvement on how the world changes.

And for now, lets see what the new version opened up in terms of modding functionality.

[Treason]

Chiming in, for what it's worth.

I'm playing MW more than 40.x.  I've started maybe two forts in 40.x to check out the new features and see how long I could run it before a "FEATURE" crashed me.  First impressions left me pleased, but then, I wasn't expecting much by way of radical changes for a player who focuses exclusively on Fort Mode (I've never touched Adv Mode, actually).  I wasn't expecting a lot of new "Application Layer" (user end) stuff to run around with in Fort mode after reading the synopses of what Toady has done in the last two years, but I was frankly amazed at the "lower layer" accomplishments he was able to do, and I appreciate the potential of what now can be done.

MW is more "polished" with "content" as far as this player's perspective.  But then, when I play I'm looking to pander to my love of creating things and the "lots of stuff" the mod offers scratches that itch.  For those who have fallen in love with the world simulation aspect, bravo, and the more power to you.  I may join you in that part, one day, but for now I am content with my own reasons.

People play this game/simulator for different (not better) reasons and to say that one view is "better" than the other (in so many words/not in so many words) smacks of elitism.  An example, I suppose, is that I play the succubi mostly, now.  According to Meph's pole, they're one of the least played.  I'm just different that way.

Point in case being the "enthusiasts" on reddit that pop up espousing this aspect of the game over that aspect as the "right" way of playing.