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Vanilla DF 40.x

Still playing Masterwork for DF 34.x

Both equally.

Both, mostly the new vanilla.

Both, mostly Masterwork.

[lightstar]

The only real sarcasm was the "glad" part. I'm not saying that Meph is saying he's more important than Toady, just that he's not discouraging the attitude of people who would say such a thing.

I dont remember ever seeing a person posting that I am "more important" than Toady. Samarkand was spot on, I made this thread to see how many people stopped playing MDF because of DF2014, to decide if I should focus on adding more Warlock content for MDF, or instead update to DF2014 after I finished the humans.

Sometimes I think you take DF way more serious than I do.

I personally think it would be best to let DF2014 stabilize a bit in terms of the current bugfix cycle before beginning the porting effort.

Else, there might be too much duplication of effort if there are changes due to bugfixes.

The efforts of those playing (testing) 0.40.0x are both useful and important - they help in finding and removing bugs. But MDF is best known for its stability - and I am sure that more content would be welcome.

[lightstar]

The only real sarcasm was the "glad" part. I'm not saying that Meph is saying he's more important than Toady, just that he's not discouraging the attitude of people who would say such a thing.

I dont remember ever seeing a person posting that I am "more important" than Toady. Samarkand was spot on, I made this thread to see how many people stopped playing MDF because of DF2014, to decide if I should focus on adding more Warlock content for MDF, or instead update to DF2014 after I finished the humans.

Sometimes I think you take DF way more serious than I do.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140005.msg5447054#msg5447054 and the endless pimping of Masterwork by the users in Reddit because they seem to be under the opinion that there is no better mod in existence and it adds more to the game than pretty much anything and it's the biggest mod for any game ever (actually saw this one said!) etc. etc.

and yeah I do not sure why you're surprised

EDIT: Rather it's not that I'm taking it too seriously but more that I feel like this mod is sorta stunting the growth of the mod community by paradoxically being too popular for a mod.

You have the right to your opinion. Similarly, I also have the right to my opinion, which is:

MDF is a great mod to have. That said, there is nothing preventing someone else from either:
1. Creating his own mod (of which there are many)
2. Creating his own mod package (and including MDF content as well).

Usually, it comes down to sheer hard work (for example, the *only* thing preventing me from a mod of my own is not lack of capability, it is lack of time).

It is also logical that this sub-forum is likely to be populated by a larger proportion of people who like / use MDF. Hence, it is likely that they will praise MDF.

Finally, I dont think the comments have been negative for DF. It is *just* that DF is difficult to play without the *usual* crutches - and people have built many: tilesets, GUI, therapist, DFhack.
MDF provides these in a package.

[Putnam]

But MDF is best known for its stability

I have reason to disbelieve you, since quite a few of my scripts are in this mod.

You have the right to your opinion. Similarly, I also have the right to my opinion, which is:

MDF is a great mod to have. That said, there is nothing preventing someone else from either:
1. Creating his own mod (of which there are many)
2. Creating his own mod package (and including MDF content as well).

Usually, it comes down to sheer hard work (for example, the *only* thing preventing me from a mod of my own is not lack of capability, it is lack of time).

It is also logical that this sub-forum is likely to be populated by a larger proportion of people who like / use MDF. Hence, it is likely that they will praise MDF.

Finally, I dont think the comments have been negative for DF. It is *just* that DF is difficult to play without the *usual* crutches - and people have built many: tilesets, GUI, therapist, DFhack.
MDF provides these in a package.

It's not so much about people who make mods, it's about people who play them. I'm not complaining about the subforum. I didn't come here expecting people who don't play Masterwork and I have no idea why people seem to be under the opinion that I'm complaining much about this place at all. It's more, say, Reddit that I care about. Reddit shows exactly what I mean by "stunting the growth of the mod community". 70% of mod recommendations there are Masterwork, at least. I've already given examples of the kinds of things people say there. I never linked to here in my complaints, I never said anything about this place, this place is unrelated. Places that aren't Bay 12 ONLY know about Masterwork when it comes to mods and that's not a good thing. The sidebar to Reddit's dwarf fortress subreddit used to say "about a mod (eg Masterwork)". I complained because that means that Masterwork is not only the only mod anyone knows about there, it's the only mod officially endorsed there. PeredexisErrant removed it, but Xandan (bless his heart, he moderates so much stuff over there) was resistant to the idea because... Masterwork is the only mod people know about there. That's, again, a problem. It's not a good thing to have only one mod known to the general public.

[Meph]

I complained because that means that Masterwork is not only the only mod anyone knows about there, it's the only mod officially endorsed there. PeredexisErrant removed it, but Xandan (bless his heart, he moderates so much stuff over there) was resistant to the idea because...

So you are the reason it was removed from the sidebar.  I was wondering why it was gone at some point.

But there is a simple reason that MDF is the most well known mod on reddit: I am the only mod author who makes threads about updates there. Thats the point. I go through extra effort to enlargen the "customer base" if you want to call it that. If other modders want other mods to pop up on reddit, they have to go there and post about it.

[Putnam]

But there is a simple reason that MDF is the most well known mod on reddit: I am the only mod author who makes threads about updates there. Thats the point. I go through extra effort to enlargen the "customer base" if you want to call it that. If other modders want other mods to pop up on reddit, they have to go there and post about it.

And so I do, but nobody really cares because it's not Masterwork. I wouldn't complain if you were actually the only one... but you're not.

[Shizmoo]

The only real sarcasm was the "glad" part. I'm not saying that Meph is saying he's more important than Toady, just that he's not discouraging the attitude of people who would say such a thing.

I dont remember ever seeing a person posting that I am "more important" than Toady. Samarkand was spot on, I made this thread to see how many people stopped playing MDF because of DF2014, to decide if I should focus on adding more Warlock content for MDF, or instead update to DF2014 after I finished the humans.

Sometimes I think you take DF way more serious than I do.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140005.msg5447054#msg5447054 and the endless pimping of Masterwork by the users in Reddit because they seem to be under the opinion that there is no better mod in existence and it adds more to the game than pretty much anything and it's the biggest mod for any game ever (actually saw this one said!) etc. etc.

and yeah I do not sure why you're surprised

EDIT: Rather it's not that I'm taking it too seriously but more that I feel like this mod is sorta stunting the growth of the mod community by paradoxically being too popular for a mod.

I regret nothing  Masterwork FTW!

[thistleknot]

I have to drop this here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/2b3mn1/does_anyone_else_play_a_vanilla_dwarf_fortress/cj20mj5

abouts mods in general

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I honestly think with the way Tarn and Zack design Dwarf Fortress, they probably don't play it much.

kind of like how Splinterz and Meph hardly play but they are constantly involved. It sounds trippy, but once you get on a "high enough" level of game design, you don't always have to be playing it to understand how you programmed it to work. Sometimes you do a cursory glance, and use the arena to test things, and then you release it to the public for them to test and mod.

I mean how else could they have missed the animal training bug in 40.01

I think they WANT people to mod their game, they put so many options programmable in the raws that is not used in Vanilla, such as castes for dwarf's, and skill learn rate; that it begs to be implemented in mods.

So yeah. I think mods add a lot to the game.

as for Meph's MW, I think he's just been lucky enough to ride the most recent wave of fanatics.  However, what he does do is allow more optimization and efficiency with his mods from his collaboration efforts with other mods; I've noticed other mods now offer sub parts of their mods.  Now that's a kind of thing we want from Rubble.

I know what it's like to go through a mod and have to extract just a part of it to apply to another mod.  Lot of work.  However, that is what is strong about this community, that we can deliver just a specific part of a mod for others enjoyment.

[Findulidas]

But there is a simple reason that MDF is the most well known mod on reddit: I am the only mod author who makes threads about updates there. Thats the point. I go through extra effort to enlargen the "customer base" if you want to call it that. If other modders want other mods to pop up on reddit, they have to go there and post about it.

And so I do, but nobody really cares because it's not Masterwork. I wouldn't complain if you were actually the only one... but you're not.

I really dont think this discussion is constructive in any way. People like masterwork because they think its good not because of what meph says. Also if you are upset about what opinions people have on reddit then you really need to step back and think about your values. Lets face it reddit is not too far away from 4chan. In addition if a mod is great then it deserves some pimping, it will never be as popular as vanilla anyway.

[Meph]

Fun Fact: Masterwork gets trashed a lot on 4chan. At least I have been told.

[Guthbug]

Fun Fact: Masterwork gets trashed a lot on 4chan. At least I have been told.

Heh. Don't let it bother you at all. 4chan exists to serve as a place to trash things. You can search the whole universe and not find a greater cesspool of negativity and nattering naybobs.

I played the new version of vanilla for a short bit, but it just felt "meh". It seems like 90% of the work he put into it over the past year is behind-the-scenes and relatively invisible. The vastly complex adventuring dialogue still results in almost every conversation ending with "it was inevitable" and there's not a clearcut way to influence world history in any visible means.

Masterwork is almost a different game. It's that much more complex.

[Putnam]

Fun Fact: Masterwork gets trashed a lot on 4chan. At least I have been told.

Heh. Don't let it bother you at all. 4chan exists to serve as a place to trash things. You can search the whole universe and not find a greater cesspool of negativity and nattering naybobs.

I played the new version of vanilla for a short bit, but it just felt "meh". It seems like 90% of the work he put into it over the past year is behind-the-scenes and relatively invisible. The vastly complex adventuring dialogue still results in almost every conversation ending with "it was inevitable" and there's not a clearcut way to influence world history in any visible means.

Masterwork is almost a different game. It's that much more complex.

See, this is what I mean! You're looking at the shallowest things and saying "see, it's not much at all!", then go to Masterwork and say "I know more about it, therefore it's more complex". 0.40 is objectively the biggest update Dwarf Fortress has ever had. The world goes on outside your fortress. I am not exaggerating at all when I say that 0.40 could be called a sequel to Dwarf Fortress if it were made by another company (see the Sims 3, which built its entire premise of "different from the Sims 2" on the exact same thing that this version has). Masterwork cannot do anything on the scale 0.40 did. Note that I did not say does not, I said cannot. Quantity is meaningless, especially in a game like Dwarf Fortress where you can copy+paste everything, edit some minor thing and make 3-4 reactions a minute without issue.

[Meph]

I agree that the changes to the world are amazing, that no one but Toady can pull that off, and that its a great step towards his goal of a living, breathing, random fantasy story/world generator that DF is designed be him to be.

But for a strategy player in fort mode, it adds only one thing, and one thing only: You can retire and reclaim your fort at a later stage.

Adv Mode changes a lot through this, I assume (I actually dont know), because you can run around in that world and interact with it. But in Fort Mode its the same sieges, diplomats and caravans that come by. You do get better stories in legends and adv mod, but that barely affects fort mode.

The giant trees for example have a much bigger impact on fort mode than the "the world history continues after worldgen".

[Putnam]

It also adds trees and a non-event-based siege/ambush system.

The liaison sometimes doesn't appear for getting waylaid.

Wars can be declared while playing now, which can cause extra trouble for your fort down the road.

But for a strategy player in fort mode

Right, sometimes I forget that people who play Masterwork aren't actually interested in Dwarf Fortress.

[Guthbug]

Very little of that is actually visible to the player.

And vanilla adventurer mode just frustrates me. I can slaughter the mayor and his guards and take over a town now, which is cool I suppose, but I'd still rather have the basic functionality of being able to craft myself a pair of pants.

My hope is that once .40 stabilizes somewhat and some Masterwork modding can get shoehorned into it, we'll see something closer to my dream for the Masterwork world ... a consistent universe. By that I mean being able to create a warlock dungeon and play for awhile, then retire it or abandon it and go play Dwarves, and have that warlock dungeon actually exist out there without having to delete the save folder and regen a new world. Perhaps even some interesting interactions between the two.

You play a different game than I do, Putnam. You look at the amazing skeleton that is vanilla and think, "Wow, this is super complex" but I look at that skeleton and think, "With some flesh, skin, curves, and hair then it could be Cindy Crawford!"

[Putnam]

No, I see this. I don't see the skeleton by itself and think it's great. I wouldn't be a modder if I thought it was good enough as-is. I'm saying that you're missing the forest for the trees almost literally. You aren't seeing the big picture and other such buzzwords. If you think Masterwork is somehow bigger than 0.40, you don't know what Dwarf Fortress is.

EDIT: Oy, I'm getting hostile again. Please don't do stuff like this:

You look at the amazing skeleton that is vanilla and think, "Wow, this is super complex" but I look at that skeleton and think, "With some flesh, skin, curves, and hair then it could be Cindy Crawford!"

This is representing your opinion as better than mine, and it isn't even my opinion. This is a strawman. I don't like being a strawman.

What I'm saying is that Dwarf Fortress is about the living world, not about dwarf mode. Dwarf Mode is fine, but it's not what the game is. 0.40 adds the living world. It made Dwarf Fortress what it's supposed to be. Saying that it's not as big as Masterwork shows that you very obviously have no idea what DF is, just that it's a game that's like, wow, so complex but that's not the point.

EDIT: The point being that, when you decided to follow Dwarf Fortress, you came in with the expectation that you'd get a living world and that would be huge, but clearly some people play it for... other reasons? I'm not sure. They think it's a strategy game?