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Vanilla DF 40.x

Still playing Masterwork for DF 34.x

Both equally.

Both, mostly the new vanilla.

Both, mostly Masterwork.

[lightstar]

Fun Fact: Masterwork gets trashed a lot on 4chan. At least I have been told.

Heh. Don't let it bother you at all. 4chan exists to serve as a place to trash things. You can search the whole universe and not find a greater cesspool of negativity and nattering naybobs.

I played the new version of vanilla for a short bit, but it just felt "meh". It seems like 90% of the work he put into it over the past year is behind-the-scenes and relatively invisible. The vastly complex adventuring dialogue still results in almost every conversation ending with "it was inevitable" and there's not a clearcut way to influence world history in any visible means.

Masterwork is almost a different game. It's that much more complex.

See, this is what I mean! You're looking at the shallowest things and saying "see, it's not much at all!", then go to Masterwork and say "I know more about it, therefore it's more complex". 0.40 is objectively the biggest update Dwarf Fortress has ever had. The world goes on outside your fortress. I am not exaggerating at all when I say that 0.40 could be called a sequel to Dwarf Fortress if it were made by another company (see the Sims 3, which built its entire premise of "different from the Sims 2" on the exact same thing that this version has). Masterwork cannot do anything on the scale 0.40 did. Note that I did not say does not, I said cannot. Quantity is meaningless, especially in a game like Dwarf Fortress where you can copy+paste everything, edit some minor thing and make 3-4 reactions a minute without issue.

There is one thing which is important, which is that the "deep" changes in the current 0.40.0x are mainly for adventurer mode. They don't add much depth to the fort mode.
Tarn has said so himself that this release is a focus on adventurer mode.

Hence, for people who play fort mode - MDF adds much more depth in that sense than, say, switching to 0.40.0x.

However, as someelse pointed out  - I find this whole conversation meaningless. MDF / 0.40 is not a either-or choice.
Shortly, MDF will get moved to 0.40, in which case you get both, or neither - whatever is your preference.

[lightstar]

It also adds trees and a non-event-based siege/ambush system.

The liaison sometimes doesn't appear for getting waylaid.

Wars can be declared while playing now, which can cause extra trouble for your fort down the road.

But for a strategy player in fort mode

Right, sometimes I forget that people who play Masterwork aren't actually interested in Dwarf Fortress.

How, pray, do you conclude the above?

[lightstar]

No, I see this. I don't see the skeleton by itself and think it's great. I wouldn't be a modder if I thought it was good enough as-is. I'm saying that you're missing the forest for the trees almost literally. You aren't seeing the big picture and other such buzzwords. If you think Masterwork is somehow bigger than 0.40, you don't know what Dwarf Fortress is.

EDIT: Oy, I'm getting hostile again. Please don't do stuff like this:

You look at the amazing skeleton that is vanilla and think, "Wow, this is super complex" but I look at that skeleton and think, "With some flesh, skin, curves, and hair then it could be Cindy Crawford!"

This is representing your opinion as better than mine, and it isn't even my opinion. This is a strawman. I don't like being a strawman.

What I'm saying is that Dwarf Fortress is about the living world, not about dwarf mode. Dwarf Mode is fine, but it's not what the game is. 0.40 adds the living world. It made Dwarf Fortress what it's supposed to be. Saying that it's not as big as Masterwork shows that you very obviously have no idea what DF is, just that it's a game that's like, wow, so complex but that's not the point.

EDIT: The point being that, when you decided to follow Dwarf Fortress, you came in with the expectation that you'd get a living world and that would be huge, but clearly some people play it for... other reasons? I'm not sure. They think it's a strategy game?

Dwarf fortress is different things to different people.  For you, its about the living world.

For me, its a simulation which is better than other city-builders which I have played.

Dont assume that everyone is going to take / like / focus on the same aspect of DF that you have. Or that there is a "correct" way of looking at DF.

[Zeranamu]

My 2c - I'm playing a bit of both, fairly equally I guess. One day I'll play all 40.xx, the next I'll load up MDF. Even before 40.xx was out that's pretty much how it went, since I like playing vanilla quite a bit (with my own minor modifications), but I also like to play with all the stuff that comes from Masterwork, so it goes back and forth. That being said, I want to see it ported to 40.xx (especially as the bugs wind down with subsequent releases)

[Isngrim]

on the actual topic of this thread:
im currently playing 40.xx more then MDF,but once i finish delving into all the new features,im going to be playing MDF until its updated,or DFhack is and 40.xx becomes stable enough to start porting MDF dwarves to 40.xx my self.

@ everyone arguing about what DF/MDF is and the such

really guys? this is a pointless argument,unless im mistaken Toady made the game to be moddable,liking MDF more then vanilla isn't making Meph out to be more important then Toady,without Toady we wouldnt be here to argue,and a lot of people probably wouldn't have a clue who or what Meph is(not bashing you Meph,just pointing it out).

i dont think i put why this argument is pointless very well,so let my try this:
Dwarf Fortress is every thing players see in it,its a strategy game,city builder,living fantasy world generator.MDFis not a part of 40.xx yet so its not bigger then it,it is bigger then 34.x but it doesnt diminish 34.x, it simply adds a few square miles of trees to putnams proverbial forest.

[Dwarf_Eater]

Well, I don't see how vanilla and masterwork can be compared?
Vanilla is base, upon which masterwork is built upon. It exceeds vanilla, because it's simply improved version of it, but without vanilla it would cease to exist. But when it comes to terms of new version it's simply uncomparable. It's like comparing robotized monkey to fully evolved human - it's fun, but pointless.

We have also issue about people right? In my opinion it is problem - they do not recognize how important vanilla is. Nevertheless this is not Meph's fault. He is no king, he is not responsible for peoples' thoughts. It's like blaming icecream company, that people throw wrappings on the road. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion it would be no problem for meph to point out, that vanilla is important on the thread with download links, but other than that I don't think he should do anything more (like constantly looking through whole bay12 forums in order to correct somebody).

The lat thing, the popularity. Well... it's just silly. Yes it may be problem, but blame people for that they worked too hard? I suppose Meph didn't buy out fans from other mods, but won them in fair 'fight' 

[Arcvasti]

In summary:
Masterwork 34.11 > 34.11
Fallout Equestria ~ Masterwork 34.11
Masterwork 34.11 ? 40.xx
Masterwork 40.xx > 40.xx
Masterwork 40.xx > Masterwork 34.11

I think that's really all there is to say on the matter.

[Putnam]

Yeah, that's an opinion. I actually don't like MDF as much as vanilla. Too... stuff. Not sure exactly what stuff I mean, too... strategy, too dungeon keeper, too "not paying attention to the miners HAHA they dead", etc.

[lwCoyote]

I mostly play MDF over Vanilla because of all the options it adds: more races to play, more races to interact with in the world, obviously tons of awesome fantasy stuff (metals, beasts, etc). I do play vanilla though. I recently discovered the fun of Orcs, so Ive been playing that a lot. Im having issues with this newest version of vanilla due to the massive FPS hit I take whenever I get more than a week into my embark.. hopefully once some optimization happens that will improve. Cause I really like the living world idea, but when it comes to looking at it is a game, I consider it an RTS really, but with a lot more depth. I play adventure mode.. I tried, couldnt get into it.. mostly the interface, which if possible is worse than fortress mode IMO -_-

Putnam> Ive noticed that your little avatar picture switches almost from post to post, whys that?

[Samarkand]

Honestly my favorite part of MDF is that it takes dfhack and gives some of its useful utilities in game significance. Instead of going to a console to call a migrant wave my dwarves were able to do it. Same for spawning magma and water. Stuff like that. Simple things I could have done with dfhack, but suddenly were actually a part of the game.

[Arcvasti]

Putnam> Ive noticed that your little avatar picture switches almost from post to post, whys that?

Avatar rotation. I used to think Putnam was 4-5 different people when I was still lurking. I use one myself, albeit with far fewer pictures.

[GreyPowerVan]

No, I see this. I don't see the skeleton by itself and think it's great. I wouldn't be a modder if I thought it was good enough as-is. I'm saying that you're missing the forest for the trees almost literally. You aren't seeing the big picture and other such buzzwords. If you think Masterwork is somehow bigger than 0.40, you don't know what Dwarf Fortress is.

EDIT: Oy, I'm getting hostile again. Please don't do stuff like this:

You look at the amazing skeleton that is vanilla and think, "Wow, this is super complex" but I look at that skeleton and think, "With some flesh, skin, curves, and hair then it could be Cindy Crawford!"

This is representing your opinion as better than mine, and it isn't even my opinion. This is a strawman. I don't like being a strawman.

What I'm saying is that Dwarf Fortress is about the living world, not about dwarf mode. Dwarf Mode is fine, but it's not what the game is. 0.40 adds the living world. It made Dwarf Fortress what it's supposed to be. Saying that it's not as big as Masterwork shows that you very obviously have no idea what DF is, just that it's a game that's like, wow, so complex but that's not the point.

EDIT: The point being that, when you decided to follow Dwarf Fortress, you came in with the expectation that you'd get a living world and that would be huge, but clearly some people play it for... other reasons? I'm not sure. They think it's a strategy game?

Some people can indeed play dwarf fortress as a strategy game or other things... multiple ways of playing a game can be correct.

Your posts have been very hostile in the thread, just live and let live

[amistospindraca]

I love Dwarf Fortress and MDF both. Yesterday, I played 0.40.04 all day long. I lost and reclaimed the same fort three times (possibly more--I lost track).

I can't wait to use dfhack on 0.40. I imagine MDF-0.40 (when it gets there) will have to replace or omit many of the features I have come to love, which is too bad. I'll be satisfied with MDF-0.40 if I can eventually: 1. use most of the old UI/multicmd shortcuts I added in, 2. play against and as the new races again, and 3. get wizard castes back so that The Armored Gorges can once again be ruled by a fearsome lich king

---

As someone who continues playing the same world over and over in both fort and adventure mode, let me add that I think anyone who doesn't is missing out.  That goes for MDF as much as for Dwarf Fortress--whether intended or not, MDF supercharged the adventure mode of DF 0.34.11. Go back and explore. (And die--it's fun).

[Guthbug]

I like playing the same world too, as much as possible. I don't play adventure mode (tried it, didn't like it) but I always think it's cool when I get former inhabitants as migrants.

I also like reclaiming a failed fortress. That is very cool. Though often the million-mile long list of the dead causes me some problems. I don't know if there's any way to cut that list out. I really don't care that Gordo Bottompiddles the goblin thief was killed by Urist McDoorguard in 127.

[amistospindraca]

One more thing to add on some of the metaphors being bandied.

I think "skeleton" vs. "fleshed-out person" isn't a fitting discussion.

To begin with, many features of MDF are entirely optional--so the game that one person calls MDF is almost definitely not the game that you call MDF. That's a debate-stopper. (Plus, you can easily introduce wide variety in your Dwarf Fortress games by changing up the world params alone--hell on earth is !fun!).

Furthermore, as many of you have pointed out, what interests one person about DF may not be the same as what interests another person. The major division I'm reading in this thread is between "civ/city sim/builder strategy game" vs. "open-world fantasy simulator and explorer." It is clear that Bay 12 Games cares about both a great deal, but their development approach seems to be holistic at every stage (which is why this game is still in early alpha after a decade). So I don't think it's fair to say that players who prefer the "city builder" aspect will not enjoy the future development of DF.

The last thing I really feel like bringing up is that sometimes, less is more. (An earlier poster said essentially this). I keep most of the MDF races and new features off whenever I generate a new world--not just to stave off bugs, either. I use different combinations each time. Having more than four or five races makes the world seem overloaded. I had a similar feeling back in the day when using StarCraft (original/BW) mods ("StarDraft" etc.)--the more overzealously I changed the game, the less cohesive and "buyable" the game felt. The story no longer mattered and the imaginative fantasy was subservient to steroid-jacked strategy; everyone had a million features "just because." On the other hand, keeping just a few things on at a time, the play doesn't feel that much different from DF despite being more varied. (Though the non-content convenience features are really dear to me--alt+p, alt+shift+t/r/n, and gui/gm-editor (I'm a dirty cheater), I miss you).

I prefer to see MDF as a customization tool for DF. That's not to take any credit away from anyone to whom credit is due--the Adamses, Meph, peterix, Putnam, expwnent, others, are all content creators and I love both tinkering with their products and immersing myself in the variety of games they make possible.

edit: mixed exclusive statements because I spent some time trying to quantify before committing