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[Dwarfu]

I like SixOfSpades' arguments, and I might try my next fort with just pack animals and regular haul values.  Part of the problem, which will most likely change your strategy if it is tuned, is that the carry capacity of the animals (and wagons) is absurd.  My games are modded with them being about 10-20% of current values (I'm still fussing with it to find a happy medium).  It feels a bit more purposeful that way.

[pisskop]

Wagons still drop 'wagon wood'?
Thats why I like them.  They drop wagon wood and I can memorialize them.  I like the work around and I like the bug.

In the future, I imagine working on wagons will pave the way for mobile siege engines and other mobile devices, like mobile pumps or even steampunk mods.  Steampunk battle armour, anyone?  Hashing out wagons now will provide a good base for future physics, and thats something I do care about.

Im thinking one day we can make 'chariots' and ride around on them.


---

Also, I am not playing the new version yet either.  High five.

[Z1000000m]

There are a near-infinite number of bad hacks for this.

To begin with, even in .40 you can sometimes have a virtually monster free entry for the caravans.  Take a low corner of the map and completely floor it over, then allow it 3-wide access underground to a centrally located depot.  The caravans will always show up there.  If they come on mules they could be anywhere.  A little less optimally, any steep slope at the edge allows spots where you can have 3 or so tiles which you can separate from the rest of the edge of the map by building floors on the ramps.

In the old version you could also split the wagons and the mules by having ramps leading up to floors with nothing underneath.  No dorf can take the ramp... but wagons will.  Haven't tested if that still works.

That and they would incinerate themselves if you happened to have magma behind a one tile wall when taking the ramp.

[Lielac]

In the old version you could also split the wagons and the mules by having ramps leading up to floors with nothing underneath.  No dorf can take the ramp... but wagons will.  Haven't tested if that still works.

Still works! It's wonderful, and how I encourage footsoldiers to take the bridged road. It used to just be a 1x3 dip in the road (3x3 underneath), but after a wild boar jumped the gap I widened it to be 3x3 (5x3) instead. Also I smoothed the long walls of the pit underneath, and waited for dorfs to climb out via the rough walls before the floors were constructed. NOBODY GETTIN' OUT THAT WAY, HEH HEH HEH

[Panando]

You can build a sealed caravan road right up to the map edge - normally you can't build walls right up to the map edge, but there are two workarounds. The first and less effective to channel and de-ramp the final 4 tiles (you cannot channel the tile closest to the map edge), this will force wagons to spawn on the road, but will also allow other things to use it. The total security method exploits the fact that bridges can be built right up to the map edge, build raising bridges that raise towards the road, then raise them. Create a roof using another bridge if you like. Since all the road except the last few tiles can be underground in the soil layer, these dedicated caravan entrances are very cheap to make.
Note that enemies CAN spawn inside the caravan entrance, but it is exceedingly rare. Caravans will deliberately spawn in the sealed entrance, but enemies only do by sheer chance and furthermore their squads will be split, half on the road, half outside it.

Sealed wagon roads are pretty much a no-brainer if they don't feel like cheating to you. Because they half feel like cheating I don't always use them. If I don't, when a caravan spawns I order a squad to go to that location to intercept any enemies which spawn in the area and have the depot in a fairly exposed location.

[Authority2]

... since the quantity of all of your requested trade goods (which is only a possibility with the dwarven caravan anyway) is capped at 4 ...

Either you're misunderstanding something here, or I am. The slider set in the diplomatic meetings is not "quantity". I believe it's more akin to the urgency you require said goods, such that there is likely to be more of the caravan's weigh limit devoted to bringing you numbers of that particular item. Setting the slider to max iron anvils may only bring you a couple (sans wagons, more if wagons are allowed), because anvils are heavy. But setting the slider to max for something like pig tail fibre cloth will bring you hundreds.

You are the one misunderstanding.

Each Priority slider setting makes them bring 1 more "unit" of that item - for food, this is 1 Stack (size 5), for alcohol this is 1 Barrel (size 25), and for cloth/leather this is 1 Bin (capacity 10).

Remember, though, that caravans will also bring extra food, cloth/leather, and wood logs if they perceive that you are in need of them (i.e. if your supplies are sufficiently low), so careful use of Forbidding before their arrival can be used to trick them into bringing more of those particular items without increasing prices. Read more here (advice is for version 0.34.11, but it's likely still true in 0.40.03).

I'm pretty sure I remember a caravan bringing wagons with about a dozen hematite on request when I was in an ironless embark.The wiki page you linked doesn't say anything about this cap of 4, either. Are you sure? Maybe they've only been bringing you four because they hit the weight limit without their wagons.

[SixOfSpades]

... since the quantity of all of your requested trade goods (which is only a possibility with the dwarven caravan anyway) is capped at 4 ...

Either you're misunderstanding something here, or I am. The slider set in the diplomatic meetings is not "quantity". I believe it's more akin to the urgency you require said goods, such that there is likely to be more of the caravan's weigh limit devoted to bringing you numbers of that particular item.

I really don't blame you for that analysis, as that was once my interpretation as well--and I really, really wish I'd been right. Because that's the way the game should stock the caravan sent to your fort: 50% is items that you actually asked for, 20% is raw goods that the Mountainhome assumes you might need (always including the "basic necessities" of 1 anvil, pick, & axe), and 30% is random trade goods that the Mountainhome wants to slough off to the ingrates living in the border towns. So, if the only item that your noble asked the trade liaison for was raw marble, you shouldn't get just 4 lumps of marble (5, if you're lucky) at double the regular price, you should get "as much marble as we felt like shipping to you, given the various factors affecting our supply & your indicated demand" at a cost markup of "however much we decided we could charge you & still sell most of our load".

Part of the problem . . . is that the carry capacity of the animals (and wagons) is absurd.  My games are modded with them being about 10-20% of current values (I'm still fussing with it to find a happy medium).

Scroll down just a bit on this wiki page to see an image that sums up the situation perfectly, and know that I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Wagons still drop 'wagon wood'? Thats why I like them.  They drop wagon wood and I can memorialize them.

Um . . . okay. Unless you have a noble who's actually good for something, in spite of their preference for wagon wood, I'm not sure why you would wish to hurt your trade relations, but hey, whatever. Goblin-pushed siege towers and hand-pumped fire engines (that spray water, not fire) do indeed sound cool, though frankly, I see more immediate applications of the "wagon-creature" model for more actual creature-type creatures. Bronze colossi have been able to fit into 1-tile-wide, 1 z-level hallways for FAR too long. Also, high five.

I'm pretty sure I remember a caravan bringing wagons with about a dozen hematite on request when I was in an ironless embark.The wiki page you linked doesn't say anything about this cap of 4, either. Are you sure? Maybe they've only been bringing you four because they hit the weight limit without their wagons.

I'm not absolutely sure, but I'm sure enough to say that I think that instead of 12 hematite, the caravan probably brought you 4 hematite, 4 magnetite, & 4 limonite. I know I've mentioned the "Rule of 4" on the forums before, and been backed up by some who are wise in the ways of drunken lunatics, and I also know that when I've built up trade to ensure a large caravan next year, and place high demand on only a few things, I don't get more of THOSE things, I get more worthless crap like sandy loam, pyrite scepters, and barrels of walrus blood.

I'll compile a list.
REASONS TO USE WAGONS
1) Larger carrying capacity (of debatable benefit)
2) In 0.40+ versions, loadout is much faster (possibly true of pack animals as well), reducing the odds of a noble throwing down an after-the-fact trade restriction
3) Wagons can take paths that other creatures cannot, allowing the player to build routes that put wagons on "safe ground" almost immediately upon arrival
4) Spawn points for wagons can be controlled slightly more easily than those for pack animals
5) "Slain" wagons drop wagon wood (of laughably debatable benefit)

REASONS TO USE PACK ANIMALS
A) Pack animals can traverse 1-tile-wide paths, as well as stairs, doors, and traps
B) In versions prior to 0.40, heavily laden human wagons could get stuck in a "traffic jam" with the incoming dwarf wagons (if you're using only a single Trade Depot, which is highly recommended), resulting in the collapse of both caravans

Personally, I would "weigh" the merits of the two lists as being just about equal, simply because Reason A carries so much security: Pack animals can enter via a narrow hallway that is absolutely PAVED with traps, and if anything extremely nasty (and trapavoid) comes in, we can just slam the doors in its face, which will slow it down long enough for use to build walls & seal the entrance completely. With wagons, the only security depends on the circuitous route the wagon must take, and/or the risk of losing a few military dwarves to Lashers & marksgoblins, and in the event of something nasty, praying that somebody will Pull the Lever to raise the drawbridge in time.

[kingubu]

If you're playing pre-minecart version, I think traps didn't block wagon access.
You can just fill the wagon path with traps. No need for the dual-path thing.
Simpler times.

[Areyar]

I dont think pack animals carry much heavy items.
A good reason to give wagons access to depot when playing on a site without ores, wood or stone... like a muddy river basin.

[SixOfSpades]

. . . when playing on a site without ores, wood or stone... like a muddy river basin.

No ore, no wood, not even stone? What the hell would tempt you to such a site?

[Areyar]

Wanting to build a docks for imaginary ships and finding out that the driftwood is not usable, the aquifer is salty (iirc) and the beach goes all the way to the other end of the site (aka desert coast). lol
That was just the one (short) time though.
I've tried embarks in many interesting spots, like near a tower or in an evil swamp, and for many reasons. Just because I wanted a stock of drinkable booze at location X for my adventurer, to build a bridge across that deep river or because I wanted to try to build a road or wall across the continent (does not work because of edge no build policy btw).

[Authority2]

I'm not absolutely sure, but I'm sure enough to say that I think that instead of 12 hematite, the caravan probably brought you 4 hematite, 4 magnetite, & 4 limonite. I know I've mentioned the "Rule of 4" on the forums before, and been backed up by some who are wise in the ways of drunken lunatics, and I also know that when I've built up trade to ensure a large caravan next year, and place high demand on only a few things, I don't get more of THOSE things, I get more worthless crap like sandy loam, pyrite scepters, and barrels of walrus blood.

Makes sense.

[billybobfred]

If you're playing pre-minecart version, I think traps didn't block wagon access.

Speaking of which, does anyone know if that's intentional? I feel like traps blocking wagon access was a bug, since they don't block anything else's pathing. (Blocking their access by slicing them to ribbons, sure, but that's not the same thing...)