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Author Topic: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress  (Read 15533 times)

Bloax

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Greiger

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 11:35:37 pm »

We literally had a thread about this not too long ago.
True.  But this one is already as large as that one in number of posts (now bigger) and there's no harm in having an extra thread or two as long as the whole forum isn't overrun.  At least that's my opinion.

CPU: Speed is more important than number of cores but you still want more than 1 core.  SDL DF does use multiple cores a little bit, but its more to give the OS it's own breathing room.

RAM: Speed over capacity. DF is 32 bit so it can't address more than 4 GB.  But you still want a little extra to give the OS some breathing room.

Graphics: Anything remotely modern that can do OpenGL.  Probably even integrated chips built into the motherboard would be plenty.

Hard Drive: Again speed over capacity unless you plan on doing other stuff as well.  As mentioned a SSD should work well.
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Babylon

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2014, 12:46:34 am »

Some kind of Linux distro is your best bet here.

Will DF run under a Linux distro? What would be the best linux distro for playing Dwarf Fortress? ubuntu?

Yes. There are Lazy Newb Pack equivalents for Linux too, I believe.

My experience has been that the Linux build of DF is notably slower than the Windows or Mac builds, though. I even get better framerates running the Windows version under WINE than I did using the native Linux build.

Lnp for linux is no longer being maintained.  As far as speed i never noticed a difference. 
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Goatmaan

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2014, 01:56:02 am »

Id just say that if you want a fast box it needs to be stand alone.
No net access. And you have to look around for cpu intenisive
Games that have optimistion threads for windows.
I built mine 2 yeras ago, while playing X3 found a link
To a MS flightsim site, and proceeded to shut down
A LOT of the windows BS that you DON'T need.....
Windows defender...areo on and on. It might take you
DEEP into nerdville central, down to H KEY ROOT but IF
You can follow directions TO THE LETTER you'll be fine!
I run DF on a 24 HD mon. With a 2500K intel NOT overclocked
At 3.3 ghz. My shorties do fine.

Good luck,
    Goatmaan
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Miuramir

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2014, 12:31:21 pm »

Hi, I'm considering building a PC exclusively to play Dwarf Fortress better. What would I need to focus on?

As has been noted several times recently, the process is roughly as follows:

* Step 0: When do you want this?  Technology marches on.  In particular, DDR4 memory is likely to be very helpful for DF, but it's not really available yet. 

* Start by realizing you're building a scientific workstation, not a gaming machine.  The thought process and order is different.  Most of the online advice will be wrong.  In the most general terms, a DF computer starts with the memory and works out, while a gaming computer starts with the graphics and works out. 

* Pick the fastest memory you can afford; you need at least 4GB, and 6-8 depending on architecture is probably good.  Anything else is wasted on DF.  2x 4 GB of  DDR3-2133 (aka PC3-17000) with CAS 9 and a heatsink/spreader is cheap and probably the base starting point; you can do considerably better with some effort. 

We don't really have enough info to judge whether overall speed or timing (CAS latency, etc.) are most important for DF.  This is one of the areas that will need real-world tests from someone with a system stable under moderate overclock willing to run DF with different combinations of timing and speed and report. 

One suggestion floating about is that you want to minimize (CAS / speed), usually multiplied by 1000 for readability; so for a somewhat arbitrary example CAS 11 at 2666 would be 4.126, CAS 10 at 2400 would be 4.166 and slightly worse, but CAS 9 at 2400 would be 3.75 and somewhat better.  It's unclear whether this actually reflects real-world performance in general, and even less clear whether it reflects DF performance; but it's possibly better than no guidelines at all. 

* Get the fastest CPU (in terms of single-core Turbo performance in a minimum dual-core CPU) you can afford that works with the memory; this needs to be the current generation or the previous one, or you're loosing out on efficiency.  If you're willing to overclock a little, get an unlocked CPU.  (If you're willing to overclock a lot, you probably didn't need to ask these questions :)

* Get a high-efficiency motherboard with a current generation chipset to work with the above. 

* Get some sort of vaguely modern graphics card with dedicated memory and good OpenGL support.  Keep it simple so it doesn't take power/cooling/funds better spent elsewhere.  (This is the big difference between a "dedicated DF computer" and a "good gaming computer optimized for DF"; the latter spends far more of the budget on the GPU.) 

* Get a honking big cooler with a good rating and reviews.  DF on a bad day can look like an abusive synthetic benchmark, and it stresses single-core performance in a way that's unusual for games.  Modern CPUs are strongly thermally limited even with factory Turbo settings; even getting sustained 4.4 GHz stable performance from a 4790K puts out a whole lot of heat, and once you get into actual overclocking it goes up even faster. 

* Get a high-efficiency power supply rated to run all of the above, with some headroom.  If you're considering overclock, more headroom. 

* Optionally, get a SSD, or better yet one of the new M.2 or SATA Express SSDs, to hold your OS and DF.  This will help loading times, seasonal saves, writing out history, etc. even though it probably isn't going to improve your FPS running the fort much, if at all. 

* Get a 64 bit version of a reasonably modern OS.  In an ideal world, the Linux version has generally had slightly better theoretical performance on large embarks due to the way it handles memory, and is free (freeing up some budget for some other improvement); but some 3rd-party utilities are less available and there may not be drivers for the newest hardware.  Note that DF is still 32-bit, but you really want a 64-bit OS so that the OS itself and everything else (browser to look at the wiki, etc.) can get completely out of DF's way and give it unfettered access to the full 32-bit space. 

We don't have nearly enough data points on high-end computers to really know where the "long poles" are.  I'm fairly sure that there is a balance point between memory transfer speed and CPU core speed; more core clock than the memory can feed will be data starved and not doing you any good (and pipeline stalls can cause cascading slowdown), while conversely there's no gain in having memory feed much faster than the CPU can process.  Current thought is that the memory side is likely to be the limiting factor for current-technology systems; but real world data points are thin. 
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Bloax

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2014, 10:23:20 pm »

Since you're spending more on CPU/RAM than you do on your GPU, you should probably use more money on cooling (than you usually would) so that you can overclock even more - because FPS death is a widespread concern.
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Uthric

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2014, 10:46:53 pm »

http://ark.intel.com/products/80807/Intel-Core-i7-4790K-Processor-8M-Cache-up-to-4_40-GHz


The above is the best processor out right now, if moneys no object.

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JTTCOTE

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2014, 11:40:31 pm »

I threw together a $550 build. I loooove my 2TB drives so got one for sure, and a cheapo optical drive. Picked RAM based on guidelines above (at each clock speed, found the lowest latency, did the division and compared values, 9/2400 was the best). CPU is cheap and AMD but 4.2 ain't bad at all. I feel like springing for an Intel chip would take too much out of RAM in the budget I'm looking at (<600ish)

The rest of the stuff I just threw in, because I'm tired. GPU probably should be better, didn't do any background research on PSU, I'm just throwing this out there.


http://pcpartpicker.com/p/YtJpzy

Wat think?






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Bloax

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2014, 02:32:21 am »

DF fits just fine on a RAM drive (even if you have 4 GB of RAM), so you don't need anything special for the system drive.
At least as long as you don't forget to dump it off the RAM drive before shutting down the system.
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JTTCOTE

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2014, 07:05:00 am »

Yeah, but I'd prefer a large drive anyway because DF is probably not all I'd use it for.
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Miuramir

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2014, 12:17:23 pm »

I threw together a $550 build. ...

You should do some additional research and make sure that the motherboard you picked will actually drive the memory you picked at full speed.  I don't have as much experience with the AMD side personally, but the MSI A78M-E35 only officially supports up to 1866 stock, and 2133 with overclock; it's not clear from a quick look whether it would be stable taking it up to 2400 (or even capable).  Remember, the effective speed of your memory is the *slower* of it's speed or the motherboard's speed. 

I would recommend trying to find a motherboard that at least lists 2400 as a supported overclock, and ideally supports it properly by default. 

Otherwise, seems to be a decent build.  I'd be slightly concerned about fitting the nice cooler in the case, but it's listed as compatible; not likely to be a lot of extra room though. 
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JTTCOTE

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2014, 09:15:39 pm »

Looking at that CPU, man, what a great deal. The next cheapest 4.2GHz is more than double the price.

Switched out motherboard for a Biostar A88M Micro ATX FM2+. This supports all the way up to 2600MHz, enough to use that RAM. However it only has 2 slots, so 8GB is the most I can put in at this speed. Not much of an issue at all, as others have mentioned, it's about speed, and 9/2400 is very fast.

Also changed PSU for one a bit cheaper, declared my budget to be 600 up from 550, and got a better graphics card, just so I can use it for more than just DF (It should be fine for League of Legends, the other major game I play)

Debating Win 7 vs Win 8.1, but I suppose I should go with the newer one.


New: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/Fnrpzy
Thoughts?
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MeMyselfAndI

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2014, 10:55:20 am »

That CPU is not exactly the best for single-threaded performance, which is what you'd want for DF. Right now Intel is king in that area.

Yes, the clock speed is higher, but at this point that is effectively a meaningless measure for comparing CPUs of different architectures.

See here.

Edit: Looking around quickly, I'd suggest a Pentium G3258 (although that will have issues with RAM clocking). The next step up from that would be an i3-3220, but that's substantially more expensive. That does mean you need to change motherboards though.


« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 11:27:23 am by MeMyselfAndI »
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Miuramir

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2014, 04:52:05 pm »

See here.

Quick reply: The AMD Athlon X2 370K 4.2GHz is rated by the above at 1,533 for single-core performance; not exceptional, but fairly cheap, so ratio is good.  (It's also got a 2,421 overall rating considered as a dual-core.)  The OP is currently budgeting about $55 for the CPU and $60 for the motherboard, which does handle up to 2133 stock, and explicitly advertises 2400 and 2600 OC; so that's $115 for the set. 

Can we find any other CPU + motherboard combo that gets a higher single-core performance rating for the same (or lower) set cost and doesn't sacrifice other features?  There are plenty of more powerful chips out there, but most are somewhat more expensive as well, and many require more expensive motherboards as well. 

The "anniversary" Pentium G3258 is a nice chip, with a 2,070 single-core rating and 3,911 overall; but takes the price up to $70 for the CPU, and I've not yet found a cheap motherboard to drive it and the memory properly; unless I'm missing something you usually need a Z87 chipset or better to get those kinds of memory speeds, and I've not found a LGA1150 motherboard rated for 2400 speeds under a hundred dollars yet. 
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JTTCOTE

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Re: Building a PC exclusively for Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2014, 08:58:05 pm »

I didn't think I'd find a better one, but actually I did...maybe. A Pentium G2030 is $60 and a MSI Z77A-G41 (which supports up to 2800) is $55, the same price as it was before. The Pentium is 1616 single-core speed, to the AMD's 1533, and 2946 CPUMark score to the AMD's 2421. However, it's just 3.0GHz vs 4.2GHz.

Re-assembled the build, is here:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/cHt4YJ
Thoughts?
(It's slightly cheaper because the HD and graphics card were changed)



The long answer, in which I did work to get to the conclusion that the G2030 was the best one by CPUMark score:
The cheapest mobo on PCPartPicker (which is what I'm using, checking used stuff seems like a ton of effort for little possible gain) is around $30, so $115-$30 = $85 max on the processor. The following processors cost less than $85 and are higher single core speed:

Pentium G2020 / Celeron G1630 are too close score to bother with
Pentium G860
Celeron G1840
Pentium G2030
Pentium G870
Celeron G1830
Pentium G2130
Pentium G3220
Pentium G3240
Pentium G3420
Pentium G3258

All the G3.... and all the Celerons except G1630 are LGA1150. The cheapest LGA1150 mobo with 2400MHz support is http://pcpartpicker.com/part/msi-motherboard-z87g41pcmate at $70, which leaves 115-70=45 for the processor, and none of those are under that. So no G3.... or Celeron processor.

The G870 isn't listed, the G860, Celeron G1630, and G2... are LGA1155. The cheapest LGA1155 mobo with 2400MHz support is http://pcpartpicker.com/part/msi-motherboard-z77ag41 at $55, which leaves 115-55=$60 for the processor. The Celeron G1630, the G2020 and the G2030 are under that. The best of them, the G2030 is 1616 single core score, 83 points better, but is 3.0GHz instead of 4.2GHz.
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