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Author Topic: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...  (Read 5110 times)

Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2014, 11:19:32 pm »

As for homophobia...

I don't want to have that issue touched in dwarf fortress.

Agreed.
But as long as we keep it between races, racism is okay...
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HenAi

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 11:30:50 pm »

The easiest solution to "touchy subject" would be to locate the reasons for X shuns/hates Y in the raws. And just by default don't include any hot button ones.
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Skorp

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2014, 07:14:55 am »

So, even if its randomly generated people would get offended? For example, a short king runs from a battle and from that moment short dwarfs are know for their cowardice.
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Dyret

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2014, 08:36:01 am »

So, even if its randomly generated people would get offended? For example, a short king runs from a battle and from that moment short dwarfs are know for their cowardice.

That's the kind of thing I'd like to see. 'A dwarf profaned the temple of whoever at the dawn of time? Well the Joyous Society has no time for his kind, they're all uncouth brutes.' Same thing could probably apply to genders, orientations, religion, and personality traits.
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Skullsploder

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2014, 09:43:35 am »

I think that "morals" in DF should be able to apply to literally any aspect of a creature or species. As in, you have a human civilisation. You make an adventurer from that civilisation, and go and plunder some dwarf fortresses for steel gear. Later, you go on a rampage against your parent civ. As a result, just wearing steel gear should be hateable, because now a famous mass murderer is known for it.

How it should work is that your traits are then dissected by the game engine, to see how much hate those traits receive from the respective civs, and that is diluted exactly by how common that trait is in the civ in question. e.g, the dwarves have a human population of 1%, therefore hatred for being a human as a result of your plundering is decreased by 1%. Human civ has a human population of 99%, therefore hatred for being a human in the human civ is reduced by 99%. This is also limited by:

1. People with a trait cannot hate that trait (I know IRL they can, but lets just leave that out for the sake of simplicity)
2. How much about you people know determines how much about you they can hate.

I'll talk about point 2 a little more. What I mean about this is that, the amount of hate you receive for negative actions should be constant and dependent on the severity of the action, but that hate should then be diced up between ONLY your known traits according to, as described earlier, their commonness in the civ. What this means is that if, say, you were a tall, redheaded human who was rather fat, and had a fondness for wearing headveils, no one would know you were homosexual (FOR EXAMPLE) until you married another creature of the same gender, meaning you would be unhateable for that, just like your religion, provided you weren't "known for your devoutness" and, in addition, when you go on your murderous rampage:

head veils (or whatever other type of clothing you were wearing when you started hacking) would suddenly go out of fashion, depending on how in-fashion they were to begin with.
Unchangeable traits of yours, those being hair colour, height, skin colour, and so on, would be regarded with more suspicion by members of the target civ, depending on their prevalence in the civ's population.
Even your physical attributes, in this case fatness, but possibly having a huge slabs of muscle or similar, should be targettable by the morals engine, which should be completely procedural.

In short, animosity should be possible between groups of sentients within and outside of civilisations based on literally any attribute, and changeable traits, like hairstyle, type of clothes worn, material of clothes worn, weapons/armour used, wealth, profession, should go out of or come into fashion depending on what murderous or benevolent historical character WAS KNOWN TO have had or used those things.

All this stuff should also apply in reverse. Civs should be capable of positive attitudes regarding people with blonde hair, or steel short swords, or vampirism, due to great and inspirational leaders with those traits doing great and inspirational things, with the effect multiplied by the population percentage with those traits.

There should also, of course, be deterioration over time of opinions, back to a neutral point.

Well, that's my two cents.

TL;DR: hate or love of a civ should apply to any trait they know about, up to, including, and going beyond very silly things like colour of socks worn.




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Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2014, 11:15:56 am »

Wait, isn't that a little odd? What colour was Hitler's hair (For example). We don't hate people of that hair colour.
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HenAi

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2014, 11:30:29 am »

Wait, isn't that a little odd? What colour was Hitler's hair (For example). We don't hate people of that hair colour.
It was black.

Hating someone for the color of their socks certainly doesn't feel significantly stranger than various things people have hated each other for in real life.
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Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2014, 12:10:48 pm »

Well, if red socks were hated then wouldn't you hate the warriors because blood on their socks, and then no one would wear red socks...
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Deepblade

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2014, 12:29:48 pm »

Wait, isn't that a little odd? What colour was Hitler's hair (For example). We don't hate people of that hair colour.
We don't hate people with black hair because a guy with black hair killed Hitler. The answer is so obvious.
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Neonivek

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2014, 12:55:09 pm »

So, even if its randomly generated people would get offended? For example, a short king runs from a battle and from that moment short dwarfs are know for their cowardice.

Not offended... I have no moral stipulation against homophobia being in a game... in fact I'd have nothing against civs being against homosexuals by default and kill them by default, afterall that was pretty typical of ancient civilizations (even the Romans).

BUT...

Its too heavy for my tastes. Dwarf Fortress is fun for me and I don't want to see gay bashing and hatred towards gays in my fun game. Especially since Dwarf Fortress doesn't feel like it is about that.

Racism works because of how far removed it is from reality when the races have genuine differences. Goblins ARE different from humans in even their moral capacity (a Goblin can never be truly altruistic for example) and they do present a real moral dilemma when it comes to how to integrate, or even if they should, them into a society.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 12:57:32 pm by Neonivek »
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Arcvasti

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2014, 01:04:54 pm »

^^This. There should at least be an easy way to mod it in or out of the game depending on their personal opinion if this IS implemented. I mean, the new [ORIENTATION] tags are super easy to fiddle around with to provide whatever level of homosexuality you would prefer in your game. If stuff in a similar vein is added, it should be similarly accessible and simple to change. That way, everyone wins except the elves.
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Skullsploder

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2014, 02:52:26 pm »

Well, if red socks were hated then wouldn't you hate the warriors because blood on their socks, and then no one would wear red socks...

Exactly. No one would wear red socks. The system I suggested is procedural and open-ended enough that it can still be a full simulator, while, at the same time, it allows for very silly and dorfy outcomes. Which means Toady can sort of sidestep the flak for the addition of hate crimes because having a system that allows dwarves who wear orange socks going on rampages against blue-sock wearers will leave people who are in favour of perfect dwarven/elven/kobold etc social justice in tears of laughter over its modelling of silly social injustice.
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Antsan

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2014, 05:22:09 pm »

Wait, isn't that a little odd? What colour was Hitler's hair (For example). We don't hate people of that hair colour.
It's not really a defining trait that makes him stand out against others. With the system described above your post it just wouldn't be important enough.
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Arcvasti

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2014, 05:38:02 pm »

Wait, isn't that a little odd? What colour was Hitler's hair (For example). We don't hate people of that hair colour.
It's not really a defining trait that makes him stand out against others. With the system described above your post it just wouldn't be important enough.

Although Hitler actually IS an example of that. His signature moustache certainly didn't increase in popularity because of him.
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Neonivek

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Re: Dynamic morals: atheism, homophobia, racism...
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2014, 05:43:23 pm »

Wait, isn't that a little odd? What colour was Hitler's hair (For example). We don't hate people of that hair colour.
It's not really a defining trait that makes him stand out against others. With the system described above your post it just wouldn't be important enough.

Although Hitler actually IS an example of that. His signature moustache certainly didn't increase in popularity because of him.

The Swastika is a better example of that. Since before it was not only a religious symbol but one of luck that was pretty much in common use world wide INCLUDING The United States.

Then Hitler copied it (Yes the Nazi symbol is an altered Swastika)... and now if you were to use the proper swastika you would instantly be considered evil.

Or heck the opposite is true too. The "Holy Cross" would probably be seen as a symbol of barbaric execution before Christianity.

Ohh religious iconography you have such a rich history.
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