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[Bumber]

Can babies be kept alive without parents these days? If so it should be possible to use minecarts to separate the two to keep the babies safe from their malevolent parents. I grow tried of mothers charging into battle and using their week old babies as troll bait.

Usually minecarts lead to a different kind of separation for babies, though. Can they reliably survive even a featherwood cart collision?

[Ravendarksky]

Can babies be kept alive without parents these days? If so it should be possible to use minecarts to separate the two to keep the babies safe from their malevolent parents. I grow tried of mothers charging into battle and using their week old babies as troll bait.

Usually minecarts lead to a different kind of separation for babies, though. Can they reliably survive even a featherwood cart collision?

By combining minecart riding with a pressure plate and water you can wash the baby safely away to a separate location. There is no need to have the actual minecart hit the baby again.... I think we're all trying to move on from that.

[escondida]

The catch is that if you manage to lock the baby safely away from its parents, the mother will almost certainly flood you with "seeking infant" cancellations.

[ImagoDeo]

Burrow restrictions and common-sense engineering can prevent all infant deaths. The stockpiles for my training facilities are located near the doors, and burrow restrictions keep the kids in the correct zones while allowing the parents to restock the piles without crossing any spears.

I should post pictures.

[Staalo]

Since most of the children passed their Legendary Dodger grades without further incident, they're now continuing their education in live combat classes. This time I've kept a closer look at who's fighting and who's not, in hopes of seeing a pattern there. So far there isn't much to tell.

The two cowards with low Bravery scores never fight, despite all the Discipline training they've had. In addition to those there seems to be a changing group of borderline cases who sometimes charge headfirst into combat and other times just run around in panic. It looks like in beginning of each combat every student goes through a complicated decision whether to fight or flee, with multiple traits affecting the outcome. So far I've noticed that non-fighting dwarves tend to have at least one of following traits (names from Dwarf Therapist):

- low Bravery trait
- doesn't value Martial Prowess
- low Excitement Seeking trait

The fight/flee decision seems to be in force until the current threat has passed in one form or another. I have witnessed only one situation where a non-fighting student has started suddenly fighting and that involved a student getting enraged after getting a severe beating from a goblin invader. Few ticks later the goblin was very dead and the injured student went to get a new pair of trousers and a drink, in that order.

[ImagoDeo]

Since most of the children passed their Legendary Dodger grades without further incident, they're now continuing their education in live combat classes. This time I've kept a closer look at who's fighting and who's not, in hopes of seeing a pattern there. So far there isn't much to tell.

The two cowards with low Bravery scores never fight, despite all the Discipline training they've had. In addition to those there seems to be a changing group of borderline cases who sometimes charge headfirst into combat and other times just run around in panic. It looks like in beginning of each combat every student goes through a complicated decision whether to fight or flee, with multiple traits affecting the outcome. So far I've noticed that non-fighting dwarves tend to have at least one of following traits (names from Dwarf Therapist):

- low Bravery trait
- doesn't value Martial Prowess
- low Excitement Seeking trait

The fight/flee decision seems to be in force until the current threat has passed in one form or another. I have witnessed only one situation where a non-fighting student has started suddenly fighting and that involved a student getting enraged after getting a severe beating from a goblin invader. Few ticks later the goblin was very dead and the injured student went to get a new pair of trousers and a drink, in that order.

This is an important finding, and it makes sense. The dwarves who fit into those categories should be used as non-military dwarves (or drowned in magma, whichever). Everyone else who can also gain Discipline and be desensitized should be part of a militia starting at graduation from the daycare. Legendary grades should be achieved in all child-untrainable skills (e.g. Axedwarf) and then the student is done with postgraduate training and can move into the workforce with their weapon and a suit of armor.

[Staalo]

Three students are taking horrors of battle worse than their fellows and have to take constantly time off to cool down their stress levels. I'm micromanaging them and after every few bouts moving them back to the old training room to enjoy the luxurious surroundings and the company of their younger siblings. So far I've managed to keep them away from Stressed status.

Two of the easily stressed students are obvious cases with high Stress Vulnerability trait values but I'm a bit mystified why the third one, nine years old Kogan Gatesaviors is suffering so much. His Stress Vulnerability is average, Bravery is among the highest in the class and he has no other obvious traits that could affect the outcome. I wonder if his low Tolerant score could make him anxious about meeting members of other species (and killing them!)

[TheHossofMoss]

PTW

...also I'm glad you're back! I'm ready to see what we can all discover.

[ImagoDeo]

At this point, I just need to collect all the data and go back through every page of the thread for links and quotes. Then I'll compile everything into a thread and throw it up in the main forum. Eventually it'll probably morph into a wiki page.

I just need to get off my butt and do it. But I've got a lot going on, so it may be some time.

[Staalo]

Nuspu Spittleknight the Wastes of Control, an ancient and powerful female hydra, strayed into Copperfell's array of cage traps and got immediately hired as a guest lecturer for my students. Surprisingly it proved to be less of a punching bag than other meaty megabeasts: when there's no chance of one-shotting the enemy with a headpunch the only thing the children could do was to keep bashing it until it slowly bled out. During the process it also managed to send two students to the hospital, luckily with nonpermanent wounds. All in all a very successful training session; I like it when the lecturers show a little spirit.

It seems the fight/flee decision is more complex than I thought earlier; one of the proven cowards indeed does take part in combat, although rarely, and some students with none of the traits I listed have had occasional breakdowns. I will have to continue monitoring the training sessions for more clues.

Copperfell has now 43 children out of 120 citizens. The first true graduations should be due in two years.

[Staalo]

Troglodytes and blind cave ogres seem to have a strange fascination towards cage traps and there are now whole tribes of them caged in the storage dungeons. Naturally the idea of using them for desensitization training had to come up sooner or later.

At first I thought of using the old and tried drop chute splatter technique to achieve desensitization but then I decided to try once more getting some combat training out of them as well. Earlier experiments had had no luck getting the students to fight non-evil, non-megabeast humanoids, with neither side reacting to each other in any way.

After some trial and error I found out that the students attacked the poor humanoids immediately when I sent the militia in; just seeing a militia member seemed to provoke a trog test subject into a combat situation into which all students joined. Usually the students beat the enemy into bloody pulp before the militia member could reach the melee. I'll have to test out whether this works when the militia member is visible but has no path to the test subject, for example through fortifications.

So, to recap, the children (and I suspect other civilians as well) react differently to various enemy types. These are my assumptions so far, based on live testing:

- Megabeasts and other "Uninvited Guest" types: Attack on sight and fight to the death
- Wild humanoids and wild animals (past certain danger level, I assume): Join the fight if there's an existing combat situation
- Invaders and undead siegers: Run away unless they manage to get enraged; after that they'll fight while the rage lasts
- Animal undead and animal parts:  Attack on sight and fight to the death

Desensitization is progressing very slowly, by the way. I'm running out of test subjects and only few students are at "a hardened individual" level so far.

[Staalo]

After some additional testing: yes, normally peaceful trogs and ogres do indeed become hostile towards children if they even glimpse one of the militia members through fortifications, even when said militia member has no way to attack anyone in the room. This makes things somewhat easier.

Presence of military seems to be the key to trigger combat with normally nonhostile participants in this case. I can well afford to put a recruit "military observer" in special viewing booth while I go through my er, stockpile of peaceful sentients. Looks like I'm again swinging deep into the dark side with this research...

Some children are looking very much ready, even with years still to go. My most promising student, five year old Ingish Pagedpatterns has the following skill levels at this point:

- Legendary +5 Observer (lvl 78)
- Legendary +5 Fighter (lvl 41)
- Legendary +5 Striker (lvl 36)
- Legendary +5 Dodger (lvl 22)
- Grand Master Kicker
- High Master Armor User
- Professional Biter
- Adept Swimmer

I'm toying with the idea of founding a separate colony in the third cavern for the most advanced students and let them handle all the unpleasant wildlife down there. Let them run truly feral for their last years of childhood and accept them back to dwarven society only when they come of age.

[YHVH]

After some additional testing: yes, normally peaceful trogs and ogres do indeed become hostile towards children if they even glimpse one of the militia members through fortifications, even when said militia member has no way to attack anyone in the room. This makes things somewhat easier.

Presence of military seems to be the key to trigger combat with normally nonhostile participants in this case. I can well afford to put a recruit "military observer" in special viewing booth while I go through my er, stockpile of peaceful sentients. Looks like I'm again swinging deep into the dark side with this research...

Some children are looking very much ready, even with years still to go. My most promising student, five year old Ingish Pagedpatterns has the following skill levels at this point:

- Legendary +5 Observer (lvl 78)
- Legendary +5 Fighter (lvl 41)
- Legendary +5 Striker (lvl 36)
- Legendary +5 Dodger (lvl 22)
- Grand Master Kicker
- High Master Armor User
- Professional Biter
- Adept Swimmer

I'm toying with the idea of founding a separate colony in the third cavern for the most advanced students and let them handle all the unpleasant wildlife down there. Let them run truly feral for their last years of childhood and accept them back to dwarven society only when they come of age.

Good idea. Any other improvements that you want to post?

[ImagoDeo]

Three students are taking horrors of battle worse than their fellows and have to take constantly time off to cool down their stress levels. I'm micromanaging them and after every few bouts moving them back to the old training room to enjoy the luxurious surroundings and the company of their younger siblings. So far I've managed to keep them away from Stressed status.

Two of the easily stressed students are obvious cases with high Stress Vulnerability trait values but I'm a bit mystified why the third one, nine years old Kogan Gatesaviors is suffering so much. His Stress Vulnerability is average, Bravery is among the highest in the class and he has no other obvious traits that could affect the outcome. I wonder if his low Tolerant score could make him anxious about meeting members of other species (and killing them!)

Fitting that this was the 666th post in the new thread...

I kept getting deaths to throat crushes on the fall into the pool while running a danger room/pool combo as my fort's main meeting hall. Replacing the floor with wood did not stop all fatalities. I'm fairly sure the dwarves in question were wearing throat-covering gear but I'm not entirely certain. Any ideas for fixing this?

Plus, pro tip: always have a double or triple airlock of pet-shut doors to prevent cats from getting into the training area. Stopping the machines to evict dead cat bits from the spears can be a bit of a hassle.

[Staalo]

I kept getting deaths to throat crushes on the fall into the pool while running a danger room/pool combo as my fort's main meeting hall. Replacing the floor with wood did not stop all fatalities. I'm fairly sure the dwarves in question were wearing throat-covering gear but I'm not entirely certain. Any ideas for fixing this?

Plus, pro tip: always have a double or triple airlock of pet-shut doors to prevent cats from getting into the training area. Stopping the machines to evict dead cat bits from the spears can be a bit of a hassle.

I haven't had such troubles with the dodge trap swimming pool design since the first version. If all dwarves have their cloaks, hoods and mittens they should have total invulnerability against training spears and by the time they start really dodging into the pool they should have enough Armor User to withstand the fall without large injuries. Can you show a picture of your meeting hall?

I had similar problems with cats when they all supernaturally sensed that one vermin in the training room and gradually worked their way through multiple airlocks to get at it. These days I just pen all cats to food and refuse stockpiles; there's really no need to have them roam freely.