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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1882862 times)

WakeMeUp

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4455 on: June 20, 2016, 02:41:50 am »

When are we going to get embark scenarios? Right now every fortress we can make is very generic, I want to be able to create a mining colony or a prison, where I can be locked if I commit a crime. It would be even cooler than The Escapists.

Also: With the new economy will the things we produce actually matter, like they are in the world and influence it? If we produce 100 swords, will the dwarven army use them? If we produce a lot of food, will the population of other settlements grow quicker? If we produce a lot of books will they be in the world?

Same thing with the adv mod - if I rob a caravan, will its owner lose his investment and be poorer? If I attack food caravans heading for a fortress, will it starve?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 02:47:42 am by WakeMeUp »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4456 on: June 20, 2016, 03:46:58 am »

When are we going to get embark scenarios? Right now every fortress we can make is very generic, I want to be able to create a mining colony or a prison, where I can be locked if I commit a crime. It would be even cooler than The Escapists.

Also: With the new economy will the things we produce actually matter, like they are in the world and influence it? If we produce 100 swords, will the dwarven army use them? If we produce a lot of food, will the population of other settlements grow quicker? If we produce a lot of books will they be in the world?

Same thing with the adv mod - if I rob a caravan, will its owner lose his investment and be poorer? If I attack food caravans heading for a fortress, will it starve?

So far the plan seems something like this (prone to change, crazy whims and other such happenings).
1) 64 bit test release
     (Development)
2) Artifacts release 1 (npc artifacts)
     (Bug fixes, development)
3) Artifacts release 2 (magic, myths)
     (Bug fixes, development)
4) Embark Scenarios (politics and stuff)
     (Bug fixes, development)
5) Boats (moving fortress parts)
     (Bug fixes, development)
6) Economy (starving peasants)
Plus whatever else happens in between. A year development for each plus a few months of bug fixing and mini-features? Probably something like that anyway. Expect scenarios, boats and economies to be split into multiple parts.

Taverns part two in there somewhere? Sudden crisis as Toady realises politics requires an econony but an economy requires politics? Who knows! :)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 03:57:44 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4457 on: June 20, 2016, 06:59:34 am »

And don't forget that those little mini-features can end up being pretty major.  Minecarts appeared unexpectedly in a minor release.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4458 on: June 20, 2016, 07:21:40 am »

Ahhh ships. Dwarven ships in particular. Which traditionally has been represented as Ironclads. Wonder if Toady has ever thought about having cannons at least in naval warfare. If not then I suppose the plan is having them filled with catapults and ballistas? Also, does the plan of adding boats includes making them in fort mode/being captain in adventurer mode? Will boats mean we could have river docks on fortress mode to trade greater quantities of merchandise?
That could be really fun. Specially now if you can retire/return fortresses and claim sites as an adventurer. You could start a coastal fortress, build a magnificent ship(or several), save the fortress, go as an adventurer and become a captain of the ship (or admiral of the fleet), set sail to a new continent, reclaim a site there, bring settlers, retire your adventurer wether a rich man in his country or as governor of the new site, take the site in fortress mode and build a a flourishing colony there, perhaps cultivate previously undiscovered crops, exploit mineral richness or whatever.
Rinse and repeat and you can recreate the United Dwarfdom or basically any European empire and other fantasy universes (Warhammer comes to mind to an extent).

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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4459 on: June 20, 2016, 07:28:42 am »

Do you envision ships on the ocean only for the first release or so, or is it important to make the system generalized so that ships, riverboats and moving fort walls all come out at once?

At least one early design will involve putting a large boat in a cistern above the entrance, and dropping it on invaders.
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Just got back, updating:
(0.42 & 0.43) The Earth Strikes Back! v2.15 - Pay attention...  It's a mine!  It's-a not yours!
(0.42 & 0.43) Appearance Tweaks v1.03 - Tease those hippies about their pointy ears.
(0.42 & 0.43) Accessibility Utility v1.04 - Console tools to navigate the map

Cormack

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4460 on: June 20, 2016, 07:32:08 am »

When are we going to get embark scenarios? Right now every fortress we can make is very generic, I want to be able to create a mining colony or a prison, where I can be locked if I commit a crime. It would be even cooler than The Escapists.

Also: With the new economy will the things we produce actually matter, like they are in the world and influence it? If we produce 100 swords, will the dwarven army use them? If we produce a lot of food, will the population of other settlements grow quicker? If we produce a lot of books will they be in the world?

Same thing with the adv mod - if I rob a caravan, will its owner lose his investment and be poorer? If I attack food caravans heading for a fortress, will it starve?

So far the plan seems something like this (prone to change, crazy whims and other such happenings).
1) 64 bit test release
     (Development)
2) Artifacts release 1 (npc artifacts)
     (Bug fixes, development)
3) Artifacts release 2 (magic, myths)
     (Bug fixes, development)
4) Embark Scenarios (politics and stuff)
     (Bug fixes, development)
5) Boats (moving fortress parts)
     (Bug fixes, development)
6) Economy (starving peasants)
Plus whatever else happens in between. A year development for each plus a few months of bug fixing and mini-features? Probably something like that anyway. Expect scenarios, boats and economies to be split into multiple parts.

Taverns part two in there somewhere? Sudden crisis as Toady realises politics requires an econony but an economy requires politics? Who knows! :)

What's a fortress moving part? Like Transformers or something?
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Cormack

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4461 on: June 20, 2016, 07:41:05 am »

With the political system will we be able to play as judges or lawyers or have a trial in adv mode? I think that this is much needed with the thief arc - if you are caught you should stand a trial according to the laws of the civ you stole something in. Simply being sentenced seems not enough. I really want to be sent to a penal colony in the game and organize a rebellion there.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4462 on: June 20, 2016, 08:14:05 am »

"I demand trial by combat!"
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4463 on: June 20, 2016, 08:17:33 am »

Quote
What's a fortress moving part? Like Transformers or something?
Paraphrasing dwarfmoot (although it's in the development notes somewhere), boats are basically moving sections of map, which means introducing boats will enable bits of fortress to move from one place to another. Which means...I don't know. Crushing Elven merchants with moving walls? Dropping large blocks on approaching armies and having the blocks reset back to original position? Building real stone/cage traps? Dramatically having the front of the mountain open before flooding the world with magma? All sorts of things, I guess. 
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4464 on: June 20, 2016, 09:17:15 am »

Toady means to allow grain/freight elevators and boats and such, all we hear is "crush shit with huge metal walls" it seems.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4465 on: June 20, 2016, 10:38:32 am »

Wonder if Toady has ever thought about having cannons at least in naval warfare.

This would be fun. Ideally this needs further (hopefully raw-based) fleshing out of siege engines, so that cannons can be given relevant advantages and disadvantages.

Alternatively, we could at least have rocketry, basic incendiaries, etc. After all, while we're assumed to not allow going too modern, gunpowder is fucking old. Cannons, hand cannons, and to some extent matchlocks are also medieval as fuck. Just need to remember that "bulletproof" is a term that has its origins in the same era. o3o

Though if we added personal firearms, at a bare minimum we'd need to unfuck reload times for ranged weapons all being the same value, so we can have bows capable of a faster rate of fire.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4466 on: June 20, 2016, 10:49:44 am »

While boats being implemented as "moving bits of map" would provide the framework for sliding doors (both vertically and horizontally, I guess), as well as sliding roofs and other stranger stuff, the framework being in place doesn't mean a vanilla fortress would have all kinds of weird things implemented (but the framework might still allow mods to implement oddities). As Max said, elevators have been mentioned in the past. I would guess Toady would aim to implement things that actually did exist (or at least being similar enough) in the 1400-ish real world time line (and possibly stuff that would work with magic on top of that).
People elevators would be tricky because that doesn't play nice with path finding (for the same reason using mine carts for transportation doesn't work without some very convoluted solutions).

Opening the mountain to let magma out, as well as crushing stuff, sounds like the drawbridges already existing, which might mean they could get re-implemented using the new framework. There's also been talk about more complex and "realistic" multi tile traps (as well as less over powered cage traps).

The embark wagon (as well as merchant wagons) has also been mentioned as being due for re-implementation, but whether that would be as a mechanic thingie or in conjunction with introduction of multi tile creatures remains to be seen (with a leaning towards the creature implementation).
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4467 on: June 20, 2016, 11:56:35 am »

Alternatively, we could at least have rocketry, basic incendiaries, etc. After all, while we're assumed to not allow going too modern, gunpowder is fucking old. Cannons, hand cannons, and to some extent matchlocks are also medieval as fuck. Just need to remember that "bulletproof" is a term that has its origins in the same era.
Well, regarding naval warfare wikipedia tell us that: From the late Middle Ages onwards, warships began to carry cannon of various calibres. The Battle of Arnemuiden, fought between England and France in 1338 at the start of the Hundred Years' War, was the first recorded European naval battle using artillery.

As for cannons in general: First invented in China, cannons were among the earliest forms of gunpowder artillery, and over time replaced siege engines—among other forms of ageing weaponry—on the battlefield. In the Middle East, the first use of the hand cannon is argued to be during the 1260 Battle of Ain Jalut between the Mamluks and Mongols. The first cannon in Europe were in use in Iberia by the mid-13th century. It was during this period, the Middle Ages, that cannon became standardized, and more effective in both the anti-infantry and siege roles.

However Toady, I recall, stated he doesn't like the idea of making firearms default into the game (obviously the game it's always open to mod them in). However I feel that cannons mounted on ships could be an exception. However purely mechanical artillery could do the trick on ships too.

Although I might be getting a little ahead of everything, at first we need at least a raft to move on the surface of a river or lake.

...as sliding roofs and other stranger stuff.
Well, how else is going to McXavier going to take out the dwarfjet out from the beneath the dwarfball court?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 12:21:36 pm by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Repseki

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4468 on: June 20, 2016, 12:50:09 pm »

Toady means to allow grain/freight elevators and boats and such, all we hear is "crush shit with huge metal walls" it seems.

Isn't that kinda the standard for most new features? How can we use this to crush shit.

I'm looking forward to hearing how much we will really be able to do with it. Kinda hoping there will be some underwater building applications, instead of having to drain the ocean. Even just dropping a "box" of dwarves to the bottom of the ocean without flattening them would be pretty cool.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4469 on: June 20, 2016, 01:08:19 pm »

It definitively would open the possibility of easing a lot of mega engineering projects. Without even going on a maniac homicide rampage, moving parts and boats, at the hand of a crop rework could mean you can get load shipments of grains and other stuff on truly massive quantities. Massive logs industries, mines and quarries could be set up near rivers and be used to transport heavy cargo along the way. Port cities be it coastal or river ones, will have an advantage and it might reshape how the world is populated right now.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 02:17:17 pm by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!
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