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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1883047 times)

Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2205 on: July 08, 2015, 04:55:06 pm »

Quote
That raises the question (for me at least): Were people homophobic in the medieval ages?

If by "medieval ages" you meant medieval ages in Europe (if you don't, then the term "medieval ages" doesn't refer to anything, so please be more specific), the reply is yes, a lot. There could be acts that would be considered as homosexual acts today, sometimes in Orders, chivalry and places with rituals and only men, but it was as such forbidden and heavily repressed. (Think of the Knights Templar, who were accused of homosexuality and burnt for that, which gives you a strong evidence of how it was viewed).

But thats only for the European Christian places. History has seen many Cultures and pre-christian Romans and Greeks were OK with homosexuality. There were even marriages in 2nd century Rome with binding contracts. Similar things can be said for Pre-columbian natives in the Americas. Before the African States were overrun by Missionaries they were also more egalitarian towards homosexuals but that turned around pretty much with Catholics and Evangelicals - today they like to spout the Myth that everyone was hetero before the West interfered.
 Asia has its own history but there to many places werent as bad as Medieval Europe.

Europe isnt the Navel of the world, there were so many things happening elsewhere and personally i see Dwarf fortress humans as pretty much prechristian. Then again i do hope that we get some much better Civilisations stuff, laws and such were the legality and asseption can bet better reflected.
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2206 on: July 08, 2015, 05:43:42 pm »

Yeah, the homosexuality taboo stemmed from early Christian dogma about "no sex for fun, just babbies" which also cut out things like birth control and masturbation. Greek/Roman ideas about homosexuality were less about sexual orientation and more about who was the dominant partner. Two Senators being in a relationship wouldn't be shameful unless the more prestigious Senator was the "bottom." And those Greek/Roman attitudes reemerged in several places during the Renaissance before Toady's rough 1400 cutoff.

Certainly as regards DF marriage (and culture in general) I expect there will be a range of taboos and particular social conventions about all sorts of things generated on a per-civ basis. Whether and how much Philosophers can affect that is a fair question.

Xazo-Tak

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2207 on: July 08, 2015, 08:58:43 pm »

Will I be able to sing songs of my defeated foes mid-battle?
*slaughter this guy*
"I slaughtered this guy!"
*slaughter that guy*
"I slaughtered that guy!"
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2208 on: July 08, 2015, 09:22:55 pm »

Will you add some method for adventurers or fortress citizens to learn how to read soon? Will fortress mode scribes even need to know how to read? And finally will there be any reason to read books in adventurer mode?
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2209 on: July 09, 2015, 02:52:02 am »

Quote
Europe isnt the Navel of the world, there were so many things happening elsewhere and personally i see Dwarf fortress humans as pretty much prechristian. Then again i do hope that we get some much better Civilisations stuff, laws and such were the legality and asseption can bet better reflected.

I haven't said it was. The question of jwoodward48df was about medieval times, and as "Medieval ages" only exists in Europe, and is well defined in space and time, I replied. Of course, if you go back (Roman Ages), or further (Renaissance) or elsewhere, the reply is different. That's why I told it was only right for "Medieval ages", as asked in the question.

On the other hand, I quite agree with you about the need to make DF more than a medieval-copy. I think that the choice of 1400's is good, because at that time, a lot of civilisation where about the same level of development (China, Islamic world, Europe).
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2210 on: July 09, 2015, 04:03:40 am »

I haven't said it was. The question of jwoodward48df was about medieval times, and as "Medieval ages" only exists in Europe, and is well defined in space and time, I replied. Of course, if you go back (Roman Ages), or further (Renaissance) or elsewhere, the reply is different. That's why I told it was only right for "Medieval ages", as asked in the question.
I wouldn't say it's well-defined in Europe either. When does late antiquity end and the early middle ages begin? The crowning of Charlemagne has Holy Roman Emperor? When does the late middle ages end? The Peace of Westphalia? Those are sort of the most well-regarded dates, certainly with regards to medieval feudalism, social order, and the role of the church which are the biggest things we think of as defining the medieval period, but they're more of a German history than a European history.
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expwnent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2211 on: July 09, 2015, 04:18:29 am »

Will I be able to sing songs of my defeated foes mid-battle?
*slaughter this guy*
"I slaughtered this guy!"
*slaughter that guy*
"I slaughtered that guy!"

Note to self: never lose a fight to Wayne Brady.
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Button

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2212 on: July 09, 2015, 11:36:07 am »

China's Han dynasty included a number of gay or bisexual emperors, whose male partners were usually murdered after the Emperor's death, because Imperial China was worse than Westeros. The childless Emperor Ai even tried to have his partner Dong Xian declared as his heir, which worked out about as well as you'd imagine.

Obviously Emperor Ai and Dong Xian weren't married, but Imperial marriage wasn't exactly about love.

Also, I've seen and typed the word Emperor so much in looking up the details for and revising this post that it has ceased to look like a word.
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Ghills

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2213 on: July 09, 2015, 12:51:38 pm »

You've mentioned that drunkenness is related to bodysize, but that suggests that humans will be less likely to be drunk than dwarves, which sounds backwards. Especially since alcohol functions like water in dwarven biology (otherwise they would not suffer slowness when drinking only water). Will there be a method by which dwarves are less susceptible to drunkeness? 

He also said that drunkenness will be counteracted by disease resistance. If dwarven disease resistance is sufficiently high relative to human disease resistance, it would balance out their relative sizes.

Additionally, it was my impression that Toady is removing the negative effects of sobriety as part of this next release.

I don't think any of that is confirmed.

He says "It could just be a factor or shake itself out through the disease resistance att or whatever." (emphasis added)
and
"I'm not entirely certain how the most extreme abstinent dwarves are going to be handled in the long run.  Either the slowing effect will go, or there just won't be dwarves that are that abstinent (at least personality-wise -- there could be room for philosophically abstinent dwarves)."

So no, sounds like the slowing effect is still in, and we don't know what impact disease resistance will have.  Unless I missed a post.
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falcc

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2214 on: July 09, 2015, 09:04:57 pm »

I think it's pretty indisputable that Dwarves, Elves, and Goblins present within and without medieval Europe had what might today be labeled homosexuality, but since their cultures don't even have generated genders yet it's really impossible to say that it's the same thing. I'd love to see what Toady's research pile would look like if he actually tried to generate the background for gender systems for different cultures.
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2215 on: July 11, 2015, 10:03:59 pm »

Oh god, adventurer performances make more sense than I was thinking at first.

Will it be possible to spread knowledge of your deeds/increase your fame through these performances? Will the success of doing so depend on your skill in the performance?

So just basic telling people will work as it does, while blowing people away with a bardic tale and dance will lead to it being spread faster/people recognizing the tale itself and not just the deed?
This was just answered partially at least.
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2216 on: July 12, 2015, 08:10:37 am »

Is reputation as an artist going to get broadened to include non-performing arts which are already in the game, such as sculpting/statuary?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 10:28:44 am by Cruxador »
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NJW2000

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2217 on: July 12, 2015, 08:11:09 am »

Like dose engravings of masterful pots, you mean?
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2218 on: July 12, 2015, 06:55:37 pm »

Is reputation as an artist going to get broadened to include non-performing arts which are already in the game, such as sculpting/statuary?
I would presume, eventually.
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Mr S

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2219 on: July 13, 2015, 03:15:28 pm »

Like dose engravings of masterful POSTS, you mean?

FTFY
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