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[Dame de la Licorne]

Hullo,

Given all of the new plants and crops, many of which (e.g. raspberries) are bi-annuals or perennials, the current farming system is probably now officially just a place-holder (IMHO).  So, although I'm sure Toady has ideas, I just wanted to put in my two cents worth.

Basically, I'd like to see the farm-growth system and the tree-growth system be merged into one, using aspects of each. 

1.  The shrub-type plants (e.g. raspberries) should get some sort of seasonal production tags (similar to the new trees), while remaining plantable as they currently are.  When harvesting shrubs, only the part harvestable in that season should be harvested, leaving the shrub to continue growing (bi-annuals/perennials).

2. The non-shrub-type plants (e.g. radishes, spinach) should also get some sort of tags specifying when they can be planted (e.g. spring) and an equivalent of the current [GROWDUR:#] tag, only the new iteration is not limited by season.  For example, you can plant onions in the spring (say in late Slate or early Felsite) and have them harvestable 2.5 - 3 months later (say in late Hematite or early Malachite).

3. Those non-tree plants that produce leaves, flowers, fruits, etc. should have growth modelled on the current tree growth, and these plants should be harvestable at different times, without destroying and having to replant the plant (like I assume is the plan for the trees once Toady gets around to finishing them).  However, having the extra growths abstracted out (so that these plants don't have to be multi-tile) may be an acceptable implementation.

Granted, this suggestion will most likely break save compatibility, so Toady may want to wait until he has several compatibility-breaking implementations and do them all together, but I think this format will provide a more realistic (and help create a more balanced farming system) than the one we now have.

Thoughts?

-Dame de la Licorne

[Dirst]

3. Those non-tree plants that produce leaves, flowers, fruits, etc. should have growth modelled on the current tree growth, and these plants should be harvestable at different times, without destroying and having to replant the plant (like I assume is the plan for the trees once Toady gets around to finishing them).  However, having the extra growths abstracted out (so that these plants don't have to be multi-tile) may be an acceptable implementation.

I like the jist of this, while I imagine the problems will crop up in implementation.  A "fruit gathering zone" looks likely.

One bit of plant-wrangling that also needs to be considered is what in world do the elves do to get their kosher wooden items?

We could just put "wood" growths on the trees (in various sizes) that get processed at a workshop to make wooden armor and weapons, but this would leave a lot of useless droppings at non-elven sites... in particular dwarf fortresses.

I imagine it will be something like web gathering or clay gathering, that is a job that can only be assigned from the proper workshop... but using the same "fruit gathering zone" interface set up for non-elves.  The tree itself will have an internal counter akin to 0.34 berry plants or milkable animals, and wood is painlessly gathered to be made into worthless swords and breastplates.  Bigger trees either have a faster counter or produce more wood at each gathering.

The distinguishing detail of this kosher wood is that it does not carry an IMPLIES_PLANT_KILL tag.

[Deepblade]

One bit of plant-wrangling that also needs to be considered is what in world do the elves do to get their kosher wooden items?

We could just put "wood" growths on the trees (in various sizes) that get processed at a workshop to make wooden armor and weapons, but this would leave a lot of useless droppings at non-elven sites... in particular dwarf fortresses.

I imagine it will be something like web gathering or clay gathering, that is a job that can only be assigned from the proper workshop... but using the same "fruit gathering zone" interface set up for non-elves.  The tree itself will have an internal counter akin to 0.34 berry plants or milkable animals, and wood is painlessly gathered to be made into worthless swords and breastplates.  Bigger trees either have a faster counter or produce more wood at each gathering.

The distinguishing detail of this kosher wood is that it does not carry an IMPLIES_PLANT_KILL tag.

I believe someone once said they use some sort of druidic magic to grow plants into the shape they need. It probably grows out from the side of the tree like a limb, only in the shape of a sword, breastplate, crown, or whatever else they make it into. Then it just falls off naturally and not causing any harm to the tree.

I am confused though, Dirst. Are you wanting dwarves to know how to use elven magic to create grown wooden items?

As to the actual topic.

1. It's a reasonable thing and would make certain crops more worthwhile. I can't imagine him leaving the bushes as they are for too long.
2 & 3. will probably get thrown into with a farming rewrite.

Personally, I'd like to be able to plant Trees to make nice uniform orchards. Could take a barrel/rock pot and place a sapling inside and replant it somewhere else. I'm imagining the planting screen could essentially work like with workshops, the central tile would be blocked off and you need to have a suitable area surrounding the tree for it to grow. The saplings could be taken from outside, while the tress not native to your area would have to be grown from seeds first.
If we get an "Orchard" zone it could just be labeled as a safe fruit gathering area, kinda like how the water source option is supposed to be. Or, add a bit of automation for fruit gathering. Possibly for the clumsy of us it could prevent felling of the trees within by having an "Allow Felling" option

[stinkasectomy]

was going to post something like this myself.

//what i was going to post
an (in my opinion) important note for some of the more 'useless' shrubs would be to give them a new reaction or add them to the quarry bush reaction so that that you can get edible leaves/growths and separate seeds, so that you can replant, thus breaking the monopoly of flours as a reliable food source
//

from the forums (haven't checked myself) i have heard that elves have special "shaper" trees in the forest retreats. so that sounds like it doest need any changes, and no kosher wood harvesting for dwarves

for ease of use/ understanding. i would think that making a separate type of farm plot would be the most intuitive. so a crop plot which pulls out the whole plant at harvest (as currently happens), and a bush plot that just collects fruit (or other growth) without killing the plant. bush plot taking longer to grow to mature size (half a year or more) but once getting to mature rarely  or never needing replanting (low percentage chance per harvest? raw value for the percentage, so some plants are more likely to be killed by harvesting? skill (plant gather or grower) adds a modifier to kill rate). the mature bushes could then use the same code that current trees use and thus form a splattering of dropped growths

while trees would get either an activity zone similar to sand/clay to pick up growths, or an auto task similar to collect webs on a loom (or a combination might work best with a setting in the order screen like prefer/only zone fishing/water. the combination allows selective designation from zones, but would also give control of harvesting that comes from being workshop based like web collecting. plus it might make it easier to use a bucket for the job(or maybe some new basket)) whether wild or in some form of orchard

as an addition to all this, will underground 'trees' ever drop growths?

[GavJ]

Kosher wood gathering should be fairly easy to implement. All you have to do is change it so that trees don't just magically POOF into all logs form a single nick.
But instead, any gravity-isolated sections (like a cave-in in requirements but not the destruction) become logs. Thus, branches can be cut off by themselves without chopping through the whole trunk and logging the full top of the tree.

Then just make cut branches grow back.

(cave-in type support should be calculated based on that individual tree organism only. So even if touching a neighbor's branches, they don't provide support, etc. To avoid the minecraft problem of floating canopies)

[Dirst]

I am confused though, Dirst. Are you wanting dwarves to know how to use elven magic to create grown wooden items?

The idea was that only the Elves would have access to the workshops/reactions necessary for gathering kosher wood.  My concern was only that it be brought in at or before the other major agriculture re-writes.  If stinkasectomy is correct, then something like this already exists in the game as "shaper trees".  However, the raws still just have the placeholders WOOD_WEAPONS and WOOD_ARMOR with no specific PERMITTED_BUILDING or PERMITTED_REACTION tags.

I'm curious if a playable civ with WOOD_WEAPONS and WOOD_ARMOR would be able to set up shaper trees.  Just not curious enough to give my computer Elf Cooties