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[g2knee]

Goblins are creatures driven to evil by their cruel nature.

I think it should be exceedingly rare that they play nice with the more civilized races, let alone become assimilated into their populations.  They are cruel by nature, and driven to evil.  Not prone to evil or leaning towards naughtiness -- driven to evil.  Even if they played nice for a while (with humans for example) for their own self interest, they would be driven to evil actions sooner or later and cast out or killed.  Humans/elfs/dwarves would know this and kill them rather than trade with them, hire them for jobs, etc.

My 2 cents anyways!

[Witty]

Yeah, I agree to an extent. But there can be some variation. Having a few goblins who can control themselves enough to live in a human society would be cool.

Overall, civilizations are bit too...accepting? I've got the dwarven empire here that is like 1/2 dwarf, the rest of mish-mash of other races, with an elven queen. This sort of stuff should be the exception, rather than the norm.

[Neonivek]

That would mean their kidnapping for the sake of kidnapping.

Most interpretations of Goblin society is that though they are cruel and murderous they are a society built on might makes right. Even if they wanted to be cruel to humans, elves, and dwarves that they bring in (like they are with all goblins) they are stronger then regular goblins.

[palu]

So... you think there should be more racism? I love this forum.

[WJLIII3]

So... you think there should be more racism? I love this forum.

This is speciesism. Totally different, and something you do every single day, every time you eat.

[Uristsonsonson]

I remember Toady saying once (I think in a DF talk but I'm not sure) that goblins are basically just sociopaths. They don't have a conscience or sense of altruism. If I'm not totally misremembering that, then that's no reason they wouldn't even be capable of playing nice with other races. They would just lack the capability to understand why they shouldn't betray their friends if doing so is to their ultimate advantage. I could see a goblin companion leading you into an ambush if he wanted that vault slab with his civ leader's true name on it for himself, but I couldn't see him leading you out into the haunted tundra and randomly slitting your throat while you sleep and lighting your companions on fire just for teh evils. He wouldn't get anything out of it and would lose the protection of the demigod who curb stomps dragons for looking at him funny. It's just not something a real sociopath would do, you know?

[g2knee]

Yes, but everyone else would know they are sociopaths and know they are just one excuse away from stabbing every man, woman, and child in the back.  I don't think such vile creatures would be allowed in the town, let alone have a market stall or be a member of society.

[Azrayel]

So... you think there should be more racism? I love this forum.

This is speciesism. Totally different, and something you do every single day, every time you eat.

I don't think he has the EAT_SENTIENT tag though.

It's as foolish to draw comparisons to iRL racism as to declare segregation in this fantasy world normative; there are always going to be outliers and exceptions, and Goblins are indeed it would seem cowed by few strong rulers who follow a mandate of might making right.

Artificial segregation of races smacks of "generic fantasy," and while to some degree the race selection leaves us in that category regardless, Dorf Fortress should be able to transcend tropes in some ways.

Maybe what we need is a civ-by-civ racism metric, determine how much they dis\Like other races based on past interactions (their degree of race-based thinking determining whether to blame it on the civ or the race as a whole)?

[Iamblichos]

Yes, but everyone else would know they are sociopaths and know they are just one excuse away from stabbing every man, woman, and child in the back.  I don't think such vile creatures would be allowed in the town, let alone have a market stall or be a member of society.

Why not?  We encourage them to run financial institutions and pay them millions of dollars! 

[Neonivek]

Besides one issue is...

Goblins don't even treat goblins well.

[Witty]

So... you think there should be more racism? I love this forum.

This is speciesism. Totally different, and something you do every single day, every time you eat.

I don't think he has the EAT_SENTIENT tag though.

It's as foolish to draw comparisons to iRL racism as to declare segregation in this fantasy world normative; there are always going to be outliers and exceptions, and Goblins are indeed it would seem cowed by few strong rulers who follow a mandate of might making right.

Artificial segregation of races smacks of "generic fantasy," and while to some degree the race selection leaves us in that category regardless, Dorf Fortress should be able to transcend tropes in some ways.

Maybe what we need is a civ-by-civ racism metric, determine how much they dis\Like other races based on past interactions (their degree of race-based thinking determining whether to blame it on the civ or the race as a whole)?

I didn't mean artificial segregation; I was more referring to how easily civ citizens are willing to give up their livelihood and beliefs when some invader comes knocking. Like, dwarven and elven ethics/values are quite opposed to each other. An elf who is now a member of the dwarven empire by conquest shouldn't be so happy to just give up their theocratic nation and become a leather merchant or whatever. They should be dismayed and mortified, desperately clinging to their ancestral home they've lived in for maybe centuries! Again, individual values vary, so it's not like all elves would act in this way, but most should.

Of course, with the current entity/faction system in such a state of infancy, this is more or less splitting hairs 

[g2knee]

Maybe what we need is a civ-by-civ racism metric, determine how much they dis\Like other races based on past interactions (their degree of race-based thinking determining whether to blame it on the civ or the race as a whole)?

I think we actually kind of have this in place in the current version actually.  We have street brawls breakin out in the middle if market squares between human and goblin merchants due to slights that go back in history.  I'd say this is working as intended if it were up to me. 

The fact that there are even goblin merchants in the human town is what seems wonky.

[Puzzlemaker]

I think this boils down more to respecting ethics more.

[WJLIII3]

I remember Toady saying once (I think in a DF talk but I'm not sure) that goblins are basically just sociopaths...[snipped]...It's just not something a real sociopath would do, you know?

Well, they are naturally prone to anger and easily moved to hatred, violent, immoderate, thrill-seeking, naturally deceitful and immodest, and quite cruel. I wouldn't trust one to be in my adventuring party, even if its only their culture that requires them to kill everyone on sight and considers torture entertainment.

So... you think there should be more racism? I love this forum.

This is speciesism. Totally different, and something you do every single day, every time you eat.

I don't think he has the EAT_SENTIENT tag though.

It's as foolish to draw comparisons to iRL racism as to declare segregation in this fantasy world normative; there are always going to be outliers and exceptions, and Goblins are indeed it would seem cowed by few strong rulers who follow a mandate of might making right.

Artificial segregation of races smacks of "generic fantasy," and while to some degree the race selection leaves us in that category regardless, Dorf Fortress should be able to transcend tropes in some ways.

Maybe what we need is a civ-by-civ racism metric, determine how much they dis\Like other races based on past interactions (their degree of race-based thinking determining whether to blame it on the civ or the race as a whole)?

Goblins appear to have a similar genetic predisposition to evil as elves do to smug artsyness and dwarves to drunkenness and greed. Dwarves are also bashful (hahaha Toady) and singleminded. And vulnerable to stress but...uh...we knew that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the "generic" fantasy consideration that certain species are psychologically disposed to certain behaviors. Dogs are outgoing, cats are reserved, mice are skittish. Goblins are like....wolverines. Or tasmanian devils. Their ecological niche has been to expand at any cost, and to exploit the resources of other sentients wherever possible, and their entire society as been built around it and dedicated to it. I can certainly see the possibility of finding an orphan or what have you, but Goblin-kind is the universal enemy of all free people. Their civic duty is to Always Be Attacking. Their culture demands that they attack anyone who isn't actively giving them things, or possibly another goblin. Even if you found a goblin you educated and taught to understand the basics of ethics and moral responsibility, everyone else in your entire city/realm/civilization has only ever seen one, or maybe two kinds of goblins before.

If they're very lucky, and very humble, they've only seen the ones who come to steal their children.

[Saram-61-97-kon]

I think a major problem is, that goblins dont die of old age and when they form a subgroup in a dwarven civilisation, they overwhelm the original population. And as I stated in the bug-tracker, civilisations seem to be not-respected in settlement, so that creatures can live in a fortress, which are not members of the site-civ, which cause also other troubles. So goblin-outsiders should not reproduce or not accepted in an other civilisation, otherwise in a long history World the only "dwarves" are goblins.