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[taptap]

I researched these weird perpetual motion machines quite some time, it cost me my main engineer (accidental flooding) and I am still not understanding them. (Dwarven reactors that don't stop when you block any logical possibility for water movement.) Is their any science available on this? When does a reactor start becoming unstoppable?

My findings so far: only way to stop is overload (consuming more power the system provides). A closed door in the water tile below the intake, even a hatch in the intake does not stop the "over-reacting" reactor (both do stop normal reactors). It is not limited to reactors filled by direct flow from a water source (read some speculation about this), but I have a bucket filled reactor behaving in that way. Not all reactors behave that way - although it is unclear what makes the difference between the reactors. Build order magic?

[Loci]

I researched these weird perpetual motion machines quite some time, it cost me my main engineer (accidental flooding) and I am still not understanding them. (Dwarven reactors that don't stop when you block any logical possibility for water movement.) Is their any science available on this? When does a reactor start becoming unstoppable?

Sounds like natural flow. Any water tiles with natural flow will spin a waterwheel, no pumping required. I've heard that natural flow may result from dumping water in an aquifer, though I've not tested it myself.

[taptap]

I researched these weird perpetual motion machines quite some time, it cost me my main engineer (accidental flooding) and I am still not understanding them. (Dwarven reactors that don't stop when you block any logical possibility for water movement.) Is their any science available on this? When does a reactor start becoming unstoppable?

Sounds like natural flow. Any water tiles with natural flow will spin a waterwheel, no pumping required. I've heard that natural flow may result from dumping water in an aquifer, though I've not tested it myself.

I doubt the wiki explanation, which sounds like "flow" is a property of the tile. The self-flowing reactor in one attempt, may stop the next time I close the intake, even within the same dual-wheel reactor it changes which wheel keeps turning upon closer investigation of flows or sometimes both and sometimes none.

[Sisyphean]

quick question about stairs.

i just tried to replace the carved dirt stairs at the top of my fort with built stone ones however it seems to be impossible.

i removed the top layer of down stairs by channeling and it took the second levels worth of up stairs away too, so im left with just down stairs on my second level, i cant however build up stairs or up/down stairs on top of them, it just wont let me so now i have a gaping hole where my stairs should be and no way to rebuild the stairs i took away.

what am i missing? ive checked the wiki and i cant see any reason why this wont work but it just refuses to allow me to build them

[Rogue Yun]

I always like this guys explanation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_21Y34Yx4c

Basically when you channel it removes the z-level area (if present) the floor of the z-level and the area of the z-level below. Either clearing the area comletely or leaving a ramp up. Because it was a stair you removed with channel it removed both the down stair the the below z-level up stair.

To fix this you can either build a down stair on the z-level you used channel initially (b-C-d) or build an up/down stair (b-C-x).
 
Then, on the level below you will need to build an up/down stair (b-C-x). It might just be that you will only need an up stair, but that would be if you didn't have a down stair below that.

You can't build a construction you can't get to. So one has to be built before the other.

I hope that I understood and answered your concern.

[Sisyphean]

thanks for the advice but it didnt work at all in fact thats what i have been trying to do and it wont let me place either an up stair or an up/down stair in that space.

so the floors go like this from top down

1=space
  =downstair
2=space
  =downstair
3=up/downstair
4=up/downstair
etc etc

1=space is the top most floor of my fort which is on top of the downstair i constructed to replace the one i channeled out
2=space is where i am trying to build stairs and it wont let me i can place a box down or individual but when i press enter it wont let me select material.

i could channel out 2=downstair but that would just push the problem downward

basicly it wont let me build anything on top of the downstair. ANYTHING so there seems to be no way of putting this staircase back together (unless i channeled the whole thing out all the way down to the ground floor and replaced it all with built up/downstairs)

[pisskop]

I already like it and I just saw the still video

One stair cannot function without another corresponding one.

[pisskop]

@Sis

If you're having that much difficulty than channel the stair and then build an up/doown stair to suit your needs.

[Rogue Yun]

thanks for the advice but it didnt work at all in fact thats what i have been trying to do and it wont let me place either an up stair or an up/down stair in that space.

so the floors go like this from top down

1=space
  =downstair
2=space
  =downstair
3=up/downstair
4=up/downstair
etc etc

1=space is the top most floor of my fort which is on top of the downstair i constructed to replace the one i channeled out
2=space is where i am trying to build stairs and it wont let me i can place a box down or individual but when i press enter it wont let me select material.

i could channel out 2=downstair but that would just push the problem downward

basicly it wont let me build anything on top of the downstair. ANYTHING so there seems to be no way of putting this staircase back together (unless i channeled the whole thing out all the way down to the ground floor and replaced it all with built up/downstairs)

What are you getting any particular error message? Are mason's/resources available to build the construction? Are you trying to build one construction on top of another? If you are trying to build one construction on another you will have to remove it first with (d-n). I gotta' go, get a car serviced.. but best of luck to you!

[Sisyphean]

im not getting any particular error message it is just refusing to go to the material select choice after i outline where i want to build.

there is no construction on that tile unless the remaining downstair part of the carved downstair counts as a building. this image sums up my problem as best as i can:

http://imgur.com/eANdSV6

[Rogue Yun]

Well, my service has been delayed due to technical difficulties... I tried to duplicate your problem and funny thing.. channelling out the down stair only removed the down stair for me and didn't touch the up/down stair below it. So your problem appears to be unique.

Would it be possible to get some screen shots of this? Namely of you trying to build a construction there...

I tried using a dfhack feature (hitting b for box designations) and it refuses to build stairs like you say and just won't go on to select the materials. If you are by chance using dfhack try turning it off by hitting "b" after selecting the up down stair from the (b-C-x) selection, so it would be (b-C-x-b).

[Albedo]

I researched these weird perpetual motion machines quite some time, it cost me my main engineer (accidental flooding) and I am still not understanding them. (Dwarven reactors that don't stop when you block any logical possibility for water movement.) Is their any science available on this?

...A closed door in the water tile below the intake, even a hatch in the intake does not stop the "over-reacting" reactor (both do stop normal reactors)...

It should.

From the wiki, "An easy way to halt the reactor is to place a lever-linked hatch cover over the tile the pump draws from." So, I can only guess that you have multiple reactors linked, and the others might be powering this one?

Wiki: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Water_wheel#Dwarven_Water_Reactor

if not that, then, yes, it's not impossible to create "permanent flow" in a dug tile. It's difficult to replicate, and the process is not well understood, but it's happened.

[Sisyphean]

rogue yun ty. turning box select off did the trick, still not sure why channeling removed the lower stair but oh well important thing is it  works now

[taptap]

I researched these weird perpetual motion machines quite some time, it cost me my main engineer (accidental flooding) and I am still not understanding them. (Dwarven reactors that don't stop when you block any logical possibility for water movement.) Is their any science available on this?

...A closed door in the water tile below the intake, even a hatch in the intake does not stop the "over-reacting" reactor (both do stop normal reactors)...

It should.

From the wiki, "An easy way to halt the reactor is to place a lever-linked hatch cover over the tile the pump draws from." So, I can only guess that you have multiple reactors linked, and the others might be powering this one?

Wiki: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Water_wheel#Dwarven_Water_Reactor

if not that, then, yes, it's not impossible to create "permanent flow" in a dug tile. It's difficult to replicate, and the process is not well understood, but it's happened.

No. I tested single-wheel and dual-wheel reactors linked to nothing. Thing is, it isn't exactly permanent either. If I open the door and close it again, it may or may not continue (or in the dual-wheel reactor switch between wheels, no wheel (0 power), both wheels (200 power) working randomly).

[Albedo]

(or in the dual-wheel reactor switch between wheels, no wheel (0 power), both wheels (200 power) working randomly).

Well, (if I'm understanding your description), what may be happening here is you're "jumpstarting" the 2nd reactor. Once water is started flowing, it keeps flowing via the pump action, so that's the extra +100 jumping in there.

Why it's random? Not sure at all. Could be that you're using a door vs. a hatch???